Featured An example of "grade-flation" lowering specific grade market values

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Mainebill

    Mainebill Wild Bill

    I have a collector membership as a part time dealer too I do find the cac sticker helps sell it much faster. They’re not foolproof. I’ve seen cac stickers on coins I really don’t like. But the majority are better coins and with all the crap that’s in holders during various shifts up and down on grade opinions and leinincy on some issues at times it helps. That being said there’s some very good coins that for whatever reason don’t have a sticker either. I don’t reject these either. I buy the coin first not the holder or the sticker.
     
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  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    No one's ever claimed perfection, nothing on earth is perfect. That said the number if actual mistakes are FAR FAR FAR fewer than people claim on forums. CAC themselves will admit when they messed up and fix it.

    I wasn't using it in a sense of carrying a team rather the comparison of someone of great skill such as Trout/JA vs the beer league softball player/anonymous internet posters. There's a tremendous skill gap between JA and many of his most vocal opponents.

    There's also a lot of claims that are made by posters yet never show any proof or who they actually are

    He's the finalizer, last I knew and had been reported he checks every coin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2019
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  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    This is the nonsense that hurts people.
     
  5. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    So are you in a position to verify what @C-B-D asserts is untrue? You can say its "nonsense" all you want, but do you know no one at CAC is on any PCGS Boards or working groups? Or are you simply dismissing his post without knowing?
     
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  6. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    I don't have a list of current shareholders (and I really don't care to research out the information), but Laura Sperber of Legend Numismatics was a shareholder up through at least 2013. I believe Doug Winter of Douglas Winter Numismatics was also an early shareholder, but I am unsure whether that is still the case. So that portion of @C-B-D 's post is (or at least was at least recently) true.
     
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  7. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    Assumes facts not in evidence... In your mind anyone who articulates valid criticism is a "hater" or "opponent" of CAC which is not necessarily true. I know a former TPG grader who criticized CAC coins that he viewed for me in a major auction that I couldn't attend. I would hardly label him an opponent of CAC. It undermines your real thesis that those who criticize some CAC coins are utterly clueless.
     
  8. Ike Skywalker

    Ike Skywalker Well-Known Member

    Absolutely. It’s a troublesome thing to get over, but it’s worth getting over. :happy:
     
  9. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Active Member

    I do a lot of reading, but little posting because I very seldom send any of my coins to TPGs because of my first connection with one of them. I sent in a Liberty Head double eagle that I bought raw. I got it back with one of those UNC Details-OBV Scratched. I contacted them to find out exactly what they meant, because I didn't have a clue what they were telling me. I got "I'm sorry but we don't give out that information without the coin." They wanted me to re-submit it. I submitted an Eagle Liberty Head and got an MS61. I bought a 2009 (MMIX ULTRA HIGH RELIEF GOLD COIN) that had been graded MS68 for $1,300. I contacted PCGS to find out why and got nothing from them. Each coin slabbed has a number. Do they keep records as to why they gave a coin a grade? Anyway, It's gotten so bad, I only buy what I like and don't send anything out for grading because I'm not selling, just buying to look. I've got all 3 of the 2016 Commemorative Gold coins (even the gold dime). I visit my bank about once a month to look. Most of the time I buy from the Mint or ebay for Pennies or other common coins. Anyway, this has been a great thread and I learned a lot thanks.
     
  10. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Funny you’re saying that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  11. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    They don’t. It would work against their profit margin to do so.
     
  12. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    What I don’t like about the US coin market is that the designations on the slabs is treated as God-ordained fact, not the (educated) opinion that it is. It does not matter if the opinion is right or wrong, or consistent with standards, or whatever. Then this number is cross-referenced to a greysheet, which puts the coin in a set value bracket. For coins like Morgan dollars, there is a set value bracket for those with those with and without a CAC sticker. US coins are simply a commodity. In addition, few know how to properly evaluate coins, so raw coins are treated with suspicion or considered junk/undesirable, even if they are choice and problem-free. Sure, advanced collectors know better and pay premiums for premium coins, slabbed or raw, and avoid the overgraded coins, but they represent a small minority in the market. This is why I have mostly exited the US coin market, coupled with the fact that they are overpriced for the interest level I have in them. There are much more-interesting areas of numismatics which are the same or far lower cost. I have made these exact same comments before and was labeled a hypocrite. I’m glad there are more like-minded “hypocrites” posting in this thread.
     
  13. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Derp, derp, derp!

  14. Beardigger

    Beardigger Well-Known Member

    Very interesting thread, although admittedly, as a very new collector, a lot of it is still over my head but I have learned a lot. I wanted to make a few observations from a newbies point of view....
    Last year, I inherited 1/3 of my fathers coin collection, none of children were coin collectors. There were some nice items in it, lots of ASE a few Gold Eagles and some slabbed coins. the divey up was one for you , one for me etc.....I sold a small portion of it to a dealer, which in hindsight was a mistake, but I needed the cash at the time. I put the rest away and once in awhile I would bring one or two I thought were most interesting out to try to research. I appreciated the slabbed coins since they were easiest to research.
    Fast forward to last month, I found a W marked quarter in my pocket change. I knew a W was a special mark, since just for fun a couple nights before, I was watching a QVC coin selling program, and they were hyping the set with the W Lincoln penny. I realized there prices for the sets was ridiculous, and of course I never bought any. However just days later, I found a W quarter by chance. ( I didn't realize what I had and it took awhile of googling to figure it out.) That's when I got a little excited about it. Since then I have an increased interest in collecting, and have bought a couple UNC sets and proof sets from the mint. I know they probably won't ever be worth what I paid for them, but I do like them. especially the proofs.

    Now that being said, in regards to grading, why would it be necessary to have any proof or uncirculated coins from a set NGC or otherwise graded? Isn't that already assumed by it being proof or uncirculated? It seems from what I have read, that the only country that does grading (or relies on grading) is the US, and many countries collectors rely on their eyes and knowledge to determine what a coin is worth. How did we fall into this grading frenzy? Has it become a detriment to the hobby?
    Being a newbie collector, I'll probably never be into buying the expensive old coins...I do however have an attraction to W mint mark coins, proofs and UNC sets.....I will probably limit myself to those in addition to coins I may find at a flea market, or the registers at work, that I'm willing to take an affordable gamble (loss) on. This will be fun for me. (I found a 1962 Quarter at work the other day, I was pleased to find). I will continue to buy a few quarter rolls to look for more W's.
    Some think that the W quarters will just be a fad coin, but I have to wonder why so many people are buying $500 quarter boxes from the banks and searching them. Is this just because they want to sell them for a huge profit while the iron is hot? or do they think they may stay hot? Either way I will continue my lowly quest with a few rolls of quarters a week, and enjoy the excitement if I find another one.
    I believe through small time collectors like me the novelty of W coins will hold their value over time. But what do I know?
    I know this post is long, but I had a need! <grin>

    P.S. The only coin I would consider sending off to grade is my W quarter, and that is just for sentimental reasons.
     
  15. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Modern mass-produced coins are different from ancient coins in that (relatively) accurate grading matters. An UNC is worth more than an XF, and an improperly-cleaned XF is worth less than a problem-free XF. Back in the days before the internet, knowledge about grading could not be easily shared, so collectors relied on dealers to grade their wares accurately. Unfortunately, many dealers did not, and would, for example, try to pass a cleaned XF as an UNC. The collectors needed to be protected from their ignorance and unscrupulous dealers, so PCGS, NGC, and ANACS came into the picture to provide a service to set a grade backed by a professional opinion. Now there’s nothing wrong with that.

    However, things got carried away when the expert opinions were treated as God-sent facts, and their values were absolutely determined by the holders. Collectors found they never had to learn how to grade because it was done for them, despite increased knowledge available on the internet. This caused the grading services (namely PCGS and NGC) to be blindly trusted by a collector base which did not have the skills to hold the TPGs accountable. Then we had the Registry Sets, where collectors competed is a “mine is better than yours” contest. This boosted the demand for certified coins. The slabs have caused the coins to be easily traded as a legitimized commodity, making it desirable to have the coins in slabs.

    I believe this suitably scratches the surface of the slab addiction for US coins.

    I’m happy you have found your niche! I always recommend trying a little bit of everything and seeing what sticks. What sticks is always what you will enjoy collecting for years.

    I first tried collecting full sets of various types, but that got really boring very quickly. I liked having a variety of different designs, so I started a US type set. I pursued that collection for many years and really enjoyed it. However, I found that my type set would never be fully completed without a 6-figure budget, and there were several types (half dimes) that I really had no interest in. I eventually lost interest in the type set, especially once I got introduced to ancient/medieval coins.

    I found that my niche is coins that I can use to tell stories. I sold off all of my coins which I bought primarily to fill holes. As a result, my collection is far more interesting and rewarding than it was previously.
     
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  16. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You're just showing everything that is wrong with message boards. It's the accusers job to prove "they're in bed together" not the other way around.

    Also you can see their financials as a publicly traded company.

    Knowledge is power, not emotion
     
  17. Beardigger

    Beardigger Well-Known Member

    Ok..... here is what confounds me. I have a 1977 s proof set. I find the eisenhauer dollar just beautiful. I could get another set of 1977 s proofs on eBay for $5 to $10. Yet the same dollar coin slabbed as 1977 s pf69 is running $25 to $35. Is it not the exact same coin, just taken from the proof set and slabbed?
     
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Yeah, pretty much. Most would probably grade PF-68 or 69. That’s just the nature of proof sets.

    Those paying the premium are those who like the convenience (and grading fee savings) from an already-slabbed and graded coin.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    No. It's a specific grade from the set and not every coin will be that grade and many will be lower. So it's a premium coin from the set
     
  20. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    Let’s put that comment into context:

    :rolleyes:
     
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    What board of experts would that be? Show me links, show me paychecks. Show me where JA is there? I'll wait.......

    Knowledge is power

    Here's a link to the homepage https://www.pcgs.com/

    When people stop learning it only hurts them and the people that listen to them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
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