Featured An examination of the counterfeit slab epidemic. Scope and advice.

I wouldn't expect fake coins or slabs at a major auction or ANY auction...the experts there do appear good at catching that stuff.

It's the LCS and dealer who goes to local shows and/or regional and national shows. There were over 500 dealers at FUN and I doubt they all screen as carefully as Heritage or Stacks or even GC.

I think many of us remember that decades ago the threat came from small-time weasels who lived amongs us and tried to slip some bad coins past us.

Now, you have sophisitcated operations with actual minting equipment mass-producing thousands of coins and using the cover of TPG slabs

True, but the volume is higher today. Better counterfeits, too.

On this, I agree.

 

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I think this is probably true, and it may well remain true. But it seems to me that good-fakes-in-real-slabs or good-fakes-in-good-fake-slabs will be a harder challenge to overcome.

I pointed out earlier that @TypeCoin971793 was presenting specific examples, and that those examples lend weight to his argument. I've been trying to figure out what sort of evidence would support your side of the argument, and so far I'm coming up blank.

This isn't a criticism of your position. I'm saying that, if your position is correct, it seems harder to support. That worries me -- we may all conclude fake slabs are a bigger threat than they really are, and spend more attention on them than they deserve. I don't know how to tell whether this is true.

Any ideas?

 

But in all these cases you are overpaying and getting cheated, yes...but with a fake coin or slab you are getting 100% wiped out (or close to it).

Thanks !

Good point, still wish they had pics for all those coins from 1986-2010 or whatever.

 

I think with all this "fake" talk I'm getting a bit confused.....

(1) If I look up or use the barcode scanner to verify a coin and it comes up, am I in the clear ? Since the slab is tamper-proof (?), if the slab for a 1924 HR Saint comes up, unless I see a modern quarter in the slab I should be OK, right ?

(2) Pictures should confirm, but at least a description when I punch up the slab should tell me that an MS65 Saint belongs in the slab, not an MS62 or AU53 or a modern quarter, right ?

(3) Type, Bball.....what is the best way to prevent fraud in your opinions (besides being an expert grader)....is it certification lookup + pictures....or this RFID chip technology (can you explain how it works ?)

 

Now I see what is wrong. The slab says 50C, yet the coin is obviously a dollar in size!

 

As bad as the 1795 "PCGS Gold Shield" is that the OP posted it is a little disconcerting they are trying to get the toning right...

 

Were the coin or slab fake in that example ? It could have just been a typo, right ? They put in 50 cents and should have said dollar.

 

The problem is that the fakers can find a legitimate code for a legitimate MS65 Saint, then make slabs with that same label/grade/barcode, but containing inferior or counterfeit coins. At that point, it doesn't matter that the original slab is untampered.

So, if you scan an MS65 Saint slab's code and PCGS says it corresponds to an MS65 Saint, you might be holding:

1) The original coin as originally slabbed by PCGS
2) An MS64 or AU58 or Details coin in a fake slab
3) A gold-plated counterfeit in a fake slab

Today, almost always, especially if you're buying from a legit dealer, it'll be (1). If you're buying from eBay seller coolcions233_0, feedback 0, in Indonesia, I'd place my bets on (3).

 

Is a QR code (that's the black-and-white checkered pattern thing, right ?) better than inputing a certification number and/or scanning the barcode with the apps ?

They're the same, right ?

 

Yep. Same information, just a different alphabet, so to speak. (QR codes can hold more info than barcodes, but AFAIK they don't in this application.)

Edit: yep, just pulled up an eBay listing for a PCGS-slabbed coin and scanned the QR code. It spells out https://www.pcgs.com/cert/38630112 . That's the certification number, plugged conveniently into a URL so your phone will take you straight to the cert lookup page. You shouldn't even need a specific TPG app. (I've got a generic Android QR code reader app, needed it for a work project.)

 

I'll be worried when you folks start finding coins in fake 2x2s!

 

I've been test-measuring a bunch of my coins which have similar ones to measure to check the variances.

I think only 1 coin in a similar holder (and it's usually a few years difference so it may have changed minutely) was off by more than 1 gram. For the most part the variances appeared to be about 0.5 grams at the widest, sometimes less.

 

I've got the NGC and PCGS little icons on my Galaxy S9 to scan barcodes, but if you know of a good QR reader app I'll download that too.

 

You can basically get wiped out just as much if not more from what some sellers at local coin shows do.

The new slab technology is a good first step. Knowing what the slabs look like and extra security features being built in and great as well. Certs can and do help, so can looking for auction history.

I use all four of the eBay TPGs on a fairly regular basis, right now though the PCGS slab has the most things in it that are the hardest to get right for the current generation slab.

Key is they haven't though and it really wasn't close and with the history of most coins they now have to get the slab right and the coin.

 

You raise an extremely important point that I did not consider; so important that I may ask @GDJMSP to put add it to my list of mitigation techniques in my original post.

When the counterfeiters are creating their fake labels from a database, they use canned barcodes that do not match those of the genuine slabs. If you are correct in that the apps read the barcodes, then that will render the vast majority of fake slabs useless to anyone who has the coin in hand and a smartphone with a connection.

However, the fraudsters can print out pictures of the labels from Heritage or NGC’s website. The prints would typically be much lower quality than that of genuine holders, but the barcodes would be the same.

As a result, I am going to ask all of you to perform an experiment for me. See if the apps can verify on-screen images of genuine slabs. Then find three images (Heritage picture of NGC slab, Heritage picture of PCGS slab, and NGC picture of NGC slab) and print them out, making sure that they are roughly the correct size. Then see if you are still successful in getting the “slab” verified. Post your results. If your printouts are successful, DO NOT share what printer you used.

 

The one I'm using is just called "QR Code Reader". It reads the code, shows you what it says, and if it's a URL, gives you the option to go there. I keep it because I'm curious, and I like to look before I leap.

 

For what it's worth, QR Code Reader is really tolerant of different image sizes and orientations, and is perfectly happy to read off a screen. Bar code readers should be the same, so the separate printing-out stage shouldn't be necessary. You'll either get the correct readout or an error; I don't think there's any way to read a different code from the one that's scanned.

 

To combine these two as a response

Sort of the point I was alluding too was that at any point in history this conversation could have been had. As time goes forward we will always have the best fakes ever seen just as 500 years ago or 50 years ago or now.

We are better protected now from the TPGs and the ability to use the internet to check things even from a phone.

We're never going to have a perfect 100 percent fool proof system as nothing humans do is perfect.

The threat itself isn't anything new though, at this point in time people are much better equipped to deal with it with the availability of information.

 

Sort of.

Lets say they get everything perfect (which hasnt happened) for a hypothetical.

At what point should someone be accountable for their own decision to spend 4 figures? I'm not talking about being tricked but we need to stop assuming people can't make decisions for themselves.

There's a lot of trap things that happen in this hobby unfortunately but that is part of life and a reality, theres just many worse threats

 

Okay, QR Code Reader can read barcodes as well, although not as readily as QR codes.

I scanned the right-hand image from this pair in the OP:



The code I got was 0000072140058028396355. I interpret this as:

0000072140058028396355
Series number (coin type/date identifier)
Numeric grade
Serial number

The code I got from the left-hand image was 0000072260045025333029, COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. That code is for an 1893-S in XF45.

That's one quick way to fail this fake slab. But it will be trivially easy for the fakers to generate barcodes that match the label, so I wouldn't rely on this for long.