Featured An examination of the counterfeit slab epidemic. Scope and advice.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Also, an update:

    NGC has improved their photography for their slab verification pics. They are no longer as dark.

    3AAED399-F243-4DDB-8B37-1A69BC739FF3.jpeg B5159E2D-D05A-45CA-9B5F-D9A73D75374F.jpeg F12E9CC9-39D3-4871-B54B-D149B2BAF34A.jpeg
     
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  3. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    @TypeCoin971793
    I'll mention something that I believe has been completely missed...
    This is for NGC slabs...
    If there is an original NGC image available for your slab, carefully compare the edges of the slab to their photo.
    You'll notice especially from the front that there is a strange pattern or just a touch here and there of what looks like fogged stressed plastic or even a dried rubber glue look in spots. The patterns from this are random and very distinct.

    As an example, if you look carefully at the obverse of the Slab posted above, "1794 Head of 94..." You can see a bit of this above the scale image on the label towards the center of the edge of the slab. I also see a touch of it on the left edge almost straight across from the top of the coin.


    Maybe someone knows if this is part of a deliberate anti-tampering feature around the edges of NGC slabs? Maybe it's just natural variations from the sonic sealing process...But it makes it very easy to compare your actual slab to NGC's original image. I'd like to hear more if someone knows something about it.

    Because if you think about trying to somehow cleanly break open an NGC slab there would be no way to have the original sealed slab image match the re-closed and/or re-glued slab.

    I found this out fairly recently and it caused me to start looking through even a bunch of my older and more recent slabs which I know to be authentic. Even silver proofs and autographed slabs. Because I suddenly thought I had bought a tampered slab. But I have noticed this whiter stressed plastic look seems to be somewhere on every slab and it's sometimes very small and sometimes one edge has quite a bit of it.

    I started to calm down a bit when I realized on one of my more expensive coins that the stressed plastic look is only on one edge...in theory it would be impossible to break open only one edge and then remove and replace the coin.

    I've gone my whole adult life without noticing these random areas on the NGC slabs. Believe it or not...the all too real brain-fog and other issues I've been experiencing from my recent bout with Covid19 led me to this somewhat panicked moment.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  4. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

  5. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    In regards to my post above yours...look at the edges of the slab. Different pattern of fogged whiteness around the edges.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
  6. ddddd

    ddddd Member

    While there are safeguards, those can fail. Remember nothing is truly foolproof, especially when people are involved.

    This slab is an odd case and it's hard to say for certain what actually happened.
     
  7. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Kurisu, can you maybe show us a blown-up image of this fuzzy identifier and maybe highlight it with a circle or arrow ?
     
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  8. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    That is precisely what they are
     
  9. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Sonic-sealing....isn't that how they re-attached Spock's Brain on STAR TREK ? :D
     
    Beefer518 likes this.
  10. Beefer518

    Beefer518 Well-Known Member

    No, they used Vulcanized rubber! :p:D
     
  11. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    Yes... Here is the coin that 'cent' me into a panic... See what I did there? :joyful:
    It's a 1943 MS68, not a cheap coin!

    The left image is just cellphone pic I took. The pinkish one is the original NGC photo type that @TypeCoin971793 had mentioned.

    My photo is just the slightest different angle and lit from the side mostly. Because this penny is so lustrous the slightest light change makes it appear completely differently. But... You can see some obvious matching on that stressed and ultrasonically melted plastic from my quick photos, especially at the top.

    I'm not going to re-shoot the photos from months ago (sorry, couldn't find my reverse side image at the moment) but I'll explain...

    After checking my slab at the same angles EVERYTHING matches, but it's unsettling because that hazy white plastic straight up looks like rubber cement when viewed from the side of the slab...This completely freaked me out! But some of my much newer NGC slabs have similar things.

    I am able perfectly match the tiny 'teeth' around the perimeter of the plastic when it's at the exact same angle. I am able to perfectly match the tiniest marks on the obverse of the coin with the NGC image. You can see the reverse of this penny is also quite distinctive. The tiny nick above the right side of the N in ONE and it matches exactly. The tiny mirrored area above and to the right of ONE also matches exactly.

    Even the label is in the exact same position and the yellow mark behind 1943 on the label is faded a bit, but it's there too, even imperfections in the dot matrix type printing matches. I went out of my mind matching up my slab in-hand with the original NGC photo...all four sides of my slab match the NGC photo perfectly when viewed exactly straight on. The slightest angle changes almost everything.


    And then I freaked out more when I was seeing this sort of rubber cement look on a variety of slabs both recent and older from a variety of trusted sources through out the years! And that set me off on comparing lots of the original NGC photos to my slabs. I was even checking random ebay listings to see if I could see this on brand new slabs...I sure could! It was not stress I really need at the moment lol.

    Then I got extra frustrated when NGC wasn't being very responsive when I asked about it privately...they simply made sure the NGC images were posted in my registry online with them but decided not to respond to let me know... I had genuinely forgotten that I could load the original NGC image if one was available for the coin! ...I don't spend much time in the registry stuff at all, but I do register my coins since I'm a paid member and print out my lists for insurance.

    Anyone else now notice this too on their slabs!? Tell me I'm not crazy :bored:
    The Covid19 brain fogs are all too real...I truly wish it upon no one!!!!!

    1943 slabs.jpg
     
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  12. TONYBRONX

    TONYBRONX Well-Known Member

    byI resently bought a 2020 P $1 EAGLE EMERGENCY WITH A Philadelphia Mint Label Issue in a P.G.C.S Holder Graded MS 69 WITH A VERTICAL SCRATCH IN THE THREE O'CLOCK POSITION, 1/8" NEXT TO Y IN LIBERTY.
    THE BULLION COMPANY SOLD IT TO ME WILL NOT RETURN MY MONEY WITHOUT CHARGING A RE STOCKING FEE OR EXCHANGE FEE FOR DIFFERENT COIN WITH ME PAYING SHIPPING FEES BOTH WAYS. THIS WAS PURCHASED ON EBAY, I AM WAITING TO HEAR FROM EBAY, THE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF DAYS THAT MUST PAST FOR EBAY TO STEP IN???
    NICE DEAL HUH? THIS WAS A GIFT FOR SOMEONE TOO! THEY ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT THIS IS PGCS'S RESPONSIBILITY?, SO THAT MAKES ALRIGHT TO PASS ON A SCRATCHED COIN WITH OUT A CLEAR PICTURE OR DISCLAIMER!
    SINCE THIS ARTICLE WAS ABOUT IRREGULAR HOLDERED COINS I THOUGHT I'D SHARE THIS. I DONOT WANT IMG_20210114_173242_1.jpg IMG_20210114_173242_1.jpg TO WINE ANY MORE ABOUT A $60.00 DEAL, I'D RATHER DRINK SOME WINE NOW.
    THANKS FOR YOU TIME (SMILES).
     
  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    PGCS isn't a legit company, I am going to assume you mean PCGS

    As far as the bullion company you bought a PCGS 69 from a stock photo and thats what they sent you or you saw the picture of the coin and decided to buy it at the time. They are just asking you to cover the cost of a return or exchange which is reasonable.
     
  14. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    This literally has nothing to do with this thread
     
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  15. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Latest attempt from the "Bay"; chose another PCGS cert with no comparison images:
    obv-1.jpg
    rev.jpg
    obv.jpg

    PCGS cert.jpg
     
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  16. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    What the heck?! They got fairly close on the series and serial number printing; how could they do that and then screw up the bold stuff so thoroughly?
     
  17. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    5 just posted on a FB group site I administer; all were purchased by a coin shop in Florida. The 2011-W and 1908-D have been previously documented; all 5 use PCGS certs with no on-line images, but the 2011-W shows sold at auction and has Heritage's images to compare. My barcode software can only read the 2011-W and 1908-D labels.

    5-bad slabs.jpg
    buuf comp.jpg
     
  18. Gallienus

    Gallienus coinsandhistory.com

    So what's the point? Your bar code reader is not working? My bar code reader on my cell phone never seems to work with restaurant menus. Apparently the mobil version of Chrome doesn't permit .pdf files
     
  19. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Genuine vs fake slab. The fake QR code goes to the Chinese PCGS website. The real QR code goes to the US PCGS website.

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  20. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    The barcode on the fake reads just 83340119 (no coin id or grade). It pulls up a Chinese coin so I think they did the barcode for that one and reused it for the Mexico coin.
     
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  21. Phil's Coins

    Phil's Coins Well-Known Member

    I basically stay away from auction houses, I do not like the ridiculous fees they charge and I have yet to find one that will GUARANTEE YOUR COIN TO BE AUTHENTIC or can be sent to a TPG and graded at the grade they state.
    Unless and until WE (CT participants) expose those that are selling fakes by CALLING THEM OUT, we should not complain. If you have a dealer you know is selling fakes WARN US, If you ID a seller as selling a fake and you return the coin and he honors the sale and refunds your money MAKE SURE YOU LET US KNOW, on the other hand if you come across one that refuses to make it right "it's not my problem, the coins are on consignment" he/she need to be called out. It will not get better if we do not. I warned, on CT of a business here in Springfield that went out of business about his coins being sold on-line by a local auctioneer and I found out by several sources that he still has the coins and has not again tried to sell them, at least to my knowledge.
    We are a group of individuals who love this hobby and I believe it is upon us to call those out that are doing harm.
    JMHO
    Semper Fi
    Phil
     
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