Featured An examination of the counterfeit slab epidemic. Scope and advice.

And that will put a damper on the sight unseen market, which is one of the main reasons the TPGs exist in the first place

 

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NGC has scans of all the coins that are being graded now. They started in October 2008.
https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1205/Coin-images/

PCGS still does not have pictures of all coins. They do take pictures of virtually all world coins and all coins that go through a gold shield level (world requires gold shield).
https://www.pcgs.com/goldshield

 

They are SLR pics with very suboptimal lighting.

That came from an NGC employee when we were discussing slab security and pictures, in case a certain someone comes back and accuses me of making that up.

 

I'll tell you what I'd like to see....PCGS and NGC spending a few $$$ to offer free picture-taking of existing slabbed coins....show up at major coin shows...regional and local shows...maybe even let folks submit them via mail.

Let's get 90-95% picture compliance within 5 years. They can also promote it via websites like CT and the major auction sites.

 

I like this idea. I’ll what I can do. Tagging @Jack D. Young as well.

If all the images from Heritage were pulled into the PCGS database (their sales records are already tied to each relevant serial number), that would be a big step. And then if you grant permission to select dealers to add pictures to the database for free grading vouchers, then that would cover just that many more coins.

 

I'd like them to start with taking photos of all coins going forward (NGC is already doing it and I'd like PCGS to join).

As far as already certified coins, my guess is that it would be difficult to get anywhere near 90%. They can certainly try. One idea would be to offer discounted grading fees on any new submission where someone sends along a coin without a picture.

Another thing to consider is the expense associated with taking photos of older slabbed coins might be larger than the TPGs are willing to incur. The TPGs might want to be certain that those coins haven't been tampered with (gassed, etc) or changed in the holders (i.e. red copper). That would require graders to look at each coin (and not just the photography department).

There would also be dealers/collectors unwilling to send some coins in for a variety reasons (like fear of loss/damage in the mail or potential for coins to be downgraded if the TPG sees something wrong).

 

Not to mention that each slab brought in to be photographed would have to be verified as being authentic, with a coin consistent with the label. So, I doubt the logistics involved would be even remotely cost effective for the TPG. In other words, it'll happen when pigs fly (now watch Elon Musk develop a flying suit for pigs).

 

Lol, are you saying all this like PCGS is gonna consider being held accountable?

 

Good luck getting good photos of already-slabbed coins -- don't the existing third-party photo services always photograph the coins before they're slabbed?

 

Not usually. You can almost always see the edges of the holder in the photos. Things have improved immensely since the days the holders were the focus of the photos and the coins were consistently almost black. Many now have the coins blown up as well as the holder in a separate photo for both obverse and reverse. Most of the blow ups are pretty good.

 

No. The implied (inferred?) purpose of a photo of the slab by the TPG would be so that a coin can be verified to be the coin that is supposed to be in the slab, and therefore, if any TPG was going to photograph and attest to the authenticity of the slab & coin combination that you brought to them, they would have to spend time re-examining. What was proposed in earlier posts was that an owner of a coin can bring their coin to a show, or send it in to be photographed, in an attempt to combat slab counterfeiting. So said TPG would have to verify that the slab is genuine, and that the coin in the slab is correctly identified. Logistically impossible at no cost, and infinitely more impossible from a liability standpoint.

Only way it could be done is with a new (re-)submission of the coin (at regular fees), with no additional cost to submitter for photos.

If they were just going to photo a slab Joe Schmoe brought in and attach it to the slab serial number data, there would be a lot of fakes listed as genuine. So a re-examination would be 100% necessary.

 

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Unfortunately at some point collectors are gong to have to also be responsible for making good purchasing decisions.

There are already a number of counterfeits documented in genuine holders as well as the threat of counterfeits in counterfeit holders from this OP...

 

More than plenty. Photos tend to hold most folks accountable. Yet, there ate a few that feel they are above reproach.

 

Or PCGS could partner with major dealers (David Lawrence, Heritage, Great Collections, David Kahn, etc.) who deal in high volume and whose knowledge and integrity are unquestioned and offer them $x in grading fee rebates for each photo of the slab they give to PCGS. They are already taking the photos anyway, so might as well put them to good use. If they keep all past sold coin photos in their records, even better.

It won’t capture all the coins, but these people deal in such a high volume that they will make a sizable dent.

They don’t need to be good photos. They just need to be good enough to get a positive ID

All TrueViews are taken prior to slabbing

They already have to be. Many chose to not be.

They are still Under the guarantee like any other genuine coins.

 

That is an interesting strategy but could still be problematic. PCGS standards wouldn't necessarily match those of the major dealers (a dealer might think the coin is fine and photograph it while PCGS could consider the coin to have an issue). I'd imagine PCGS would want to do any photographing in-house to guarantee control over the process (and avoid costly errors).

One of the nice things that PCGS has done is link auctions on the cert verification page for a few major dealers (like Heritage, Stacks) when the coin sells there. That is helpful as it makes it easier to find the picture, but it is still too few coins.

Maybe this idea can be used but the pictures would be stored elsewhere (a dedicated website that would be linked from the cert page) and there would be a notice with some sort of disclaimer that these aren't PCGS photos. That would help ease PCGS legal concerns while benefiting collectors.

 

These dealers are able to spot fake slabs from a mile away. Mistakes would be as common as the TPG certifying a fake coin. And if there is concern about data entry, a simple program can automatically scan the photos for text and the barcode and correct any errors before being posted.

 

I wouldn't think the fake slabs would be the worry. It would be altered or gassed slabs. For example, I've seen edynamicmarketing's former coins make the rounds on some of the bigger venues. Those are harder to identify (although the toning is usually an indicator that something isn't right). Having the auction house photograph coins like that would be add some legitimacy to them (although PCGS isn't without fault here as they have TruViewed quite a few of his coins that went through the reholder service-although some claim that they are now more aware of these).

I personally like your idea; I'm just looking at it from the point of view of PCGS and predicting the push back they would have to these plans.

 

It’s better than the pushback they would receive as more people get screwed by fake or altered slabs with no pictures to verify them. This will haunt them the longer they do nothing about it

 

They must not see it that way. And financially they must have decided that the costs of getting all these pictures aren't worth it. I'm not agreeing with that, but that is the impression I get based on the actions I see.