An auction house that will list a coin condemned by Sear

It would be interesting to see the market value of the coin with the original listing, BOTH Sear and NGC papers and all additional paperwork including the correspondence with the seller and IAPN declaring Sear to be incompetent if that is their position. I would not send it back to them. It could be lost in the mail and you would never recover anything from the post office. It would also be interesting to see what Sear would have to say presented with the fact that his service has been declared unsatisfactory. Ken is right, experts can disagree. What is the proper outcome, in your opinion, when this occurs? It is interesting that this seller values its reputation so lowly that they will sell it for what they made on you. Perhaps learning not to deal with them or anyone in any way associated with them would be lesson worth the price.

 

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I think the value would increase significantly if they simply add "Comes with Sear certificate" in the listing. It would also be completely true!

I also agree with Ken, however, has there ever been a case of a coin declared a forgery by Sear that was found to be genuine? Is there any dealer you know of that would sell such a coin? Opinions do vary but a coin condemned by Sear is DOA.

 

People disagree on some coins much more frequently than one might think. Its just typically kept private and not discussed publicly. One reason why is that often opinions are swayed from time to time one direction or the other and for various reasons. It can (and has) damaged reputations when someone has to 'eat crow' so to speak (but I'm not talking about Sear here, make no mistake).

 

You need to go to the very top person at the auction house and explain the situation very detailed and carefully, and then see what they say.
This type of behavior is inexcusable for people who are in a position of trust.

 

At the end of the day, I can understand how sellers might prefer one authenticator over another(though personally I'd trust Sear over NGC any day), but what bothers me the most is that they can say with a straight face that you only have 45 days to make a claim on authenticity. That's a huge red flag and you really have to wonder why they'd put a limit on claims of authenticity...

 

In the Consumer Products world, I have dealt with a LOT of Warranty, Guarantees, etc. Even though they are written up "legally", it really does not "matter". Generally, a customer / consumer will not truly sue for under a general dollar amount, say under $1000 USD. When we handle Warranties, etc. they are ALWAYS MARKETING decisions, and were handled as a cost of Marketing. In other words, handling returns and warranty situations were a NORMAL cost of doing business, and those costs are budgeted expenses. Usually costed as a % of Sales, each year and every year. That is an expense of Earning TRUST.

HOWEVER, what is the true COST of NOT taking care of that customer??? My gosh, goofing up a $2.00 transaction is NOT worth destroying a Brand or company reputation! Bad press, bad social media comments, bad Word of Mouth, etc. etc. is NOT worth "standing your ground" if there is ANY doubt!

I ALWAYS took the position that we serve our customers, take care of their needs, and respect their feelings. That said, there WERE and ARE some abusive people, but those are the very rare bad apples.

In @Nemo 's case, WHY would an Auction House violate that trust? For them to remit the cost plus reasonable freight both ways (sounding as if it all would be under $500 USD) is a MINIMAL cost of keeping a friend to their business. However, their present position has not only destroyed NEMO's confidence in their business, but perhaps virtually everyone else's confidence that he is communicating with!

DUMB decision on the Seller's part. Folks vote with their feet: they are either going to walk in (online or a store) to buy, or they are not. I know what I am going to do...

 

Brian is right with all his comments. Its seems absurd to risk future relationships and profits over a small sum of money. Consider, if it was consigned, it could be returned. If they remember where they got it themselves (if they owned it) they could return it to the previous dealer. They could also sell it to another dealer with the caveat that there are questions of authenticity. All would be better than the path they took.

 

I suspect the 45-day limit is because they pay their consignors maybe 60 days after the auction. They want the claims before they make the payments, so they can hold-back the payment while working out the claim. That's basic business. However, in the coin business, authenticity warranties should have no limit, and I'm pretty sure the IAPN requires an unlimited authenticity warranty.

 

Carausius said...

"Second, NGC does NOT guaranty authenticity of ancient coins. NGC only grades ancient coins. So, NCG slabbing a coin is meaningless in this context. While I know NGC will not slab a coin that they suspect is fake, they don't, technically, authenticate."

That's not even close to being true. 90% of my day is spent on authenticity issues. If it's in a holder, our opinion is that the coin is genuine. Ask the guy today who sent in a box of 9 coins and is getting nine coins back as forgeries if we authenticate.

I would wager that a coin in an NGC holder is significantly less likely to be a forgery than any coin offered by any dealer anywhere. I believe this for 3 reasons. 1- anything that is marginal or that we are uncertain of, we don't holder. 2 - Of the 300,000 or so ancient coins that have been holdered in the last 8-9 years, I am aware of maybe a dozen that slipped through that ended up being forgeries. I can find a dozen forgeries in almost any dealer's sales any given year, and they sell far fewer coins in a year than I see in 2 months. 3 - in my opinion, 2 of the top 5 experts in the world on ancient coin forgeries work at NGC.

Sear doesn't guarantee his opinion either.

A dealer can guarantee a coin he sells because he has recourse with the person he purchased it from, so the only risk a dealer incurs is the profit he made on the coin. A grading service, or David Sear has no recourse with anyone, thus the insurance cost that would be involved in offering a guarantee would make the cost of holdering a coin, or in Sear's case of offering his opinion, cost prohibitive. People already send us forgeries trying to get something past us so they can post it online. It's actually a game for a number of collectors and dealers who knowing send us a few forgeries mixed in with authentic coins trying to get something past us. If we offered a financial guarantee, every forger in the world would be sending us coins just waiting for the one to slip through so he can get paid off.

Barry Murphy

 

Barry,

I think a lot of us (probably most who dont use slabbing services) are a little confused on the issue of NGC and authentication. This quote is from the landing page of NGC Ancients:

• Authenticity — NGC Ancients will only grade coins that it believes to be genuine. Authenticity and attribution represent the opinion of NGC Ancients and are not guaranteed, nor is any guarantee implied. Please see the NGC Ancients Coin Grading Guarantee for complete information.

If you click on the link you get this statement:

NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. NGC Ancients will only holder coins it considers genuine at the time of submission, but it cannot guarantee the authenticity, genuineness, type, attribution or date of any coin it holders. Unlike modern coins, which often benefit from well-documented, scientific parameters for the verification of authenticity, there rarely is conclusive data for ancient coins, and generally there is no surviving documentation to verify production characteristics.

 

Barry,

I'm terribly sorry if I misunderstood your policy on authentication, which understanding is based largely on the website language that @Ken Dorney posted above. My understanding was that you won't slab something you think is fake (I said that further up the chain), but that you don't warrant authenticity of your slabbed coins. I undersand that it might take considerable time to get comfortable enough to get past the first hurdle. So, do you feel that you are going so far as to give an affirmative opinion (without warranty) on authenticity every time you slab a coin? If so, I clearly misunderstand the nature of your business!

 

What's the discrepancy between your post and Barry Murphy's immediately preceding post? I don't see any at all.

In a past thread, I've laid out the financial case for why a third-party grading firm like NGC would not want to be an independent guarantor of authenticity: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/opinions-on-graded-ancient-coins.309985/page-2#post-2977591

Barry makes exactly the same points in his post.

I also agree that NGC's opinion on a coin's authenticity is, in 90%+ cases, more likely to be accurate than the average VCoins dealers (mainly due to the volume of coins they see, combined with their expertise).

This is not, however, a justification for the auction house's behavior toward Nemo and the coin he purchased. I understand that the auction house can dispute David Sear's opinion on authenticity, but in the interest of good customer service, it's unfathomable that they wouldn't just allow the coin to be returned for a refund. They can deal with the authenticity issue with more deliberation and detail if they have it returned. Accepting the return doesn't have to mean that they agree it's a fake.

 

Every coin NGC places in a holder goes through an authentication process. We will not holder any coin that we feel is a forgery. If it’s in a holder it’s our opinion the coin is genuine. No ifs ands or buts.

The authenticity guarantee, or lack of, is a financial guarantee. If we make a mistake, and everyone no matter how good will make one, we are not financially responsible to offer a refund. With ancient coins, authenticity is often a gray area. What we all think is ancient today, may prove to be fake 10 years from now. Becker’s, christodoulus forgeries etc all passed in the market place, although now we easily recognize them as forgeries. There are almost certainly fakes in the market that we all think are authentic today that 100 years from now they will wonder how they were accepted as genuine. The best one can do is use all resources currently available and make the best determination possible based on the facts we know today. That’s one of the main reasons there is no financial guarantee...science and knowledge might change our understanding of what is real and what isn’t, and NGC can’t be financially responsible for those changes.

I’ll say it again though, all coins that we holder have been authenticated to the best of our abilities, with no financial motives in the outcome of that decision. The fee is the same if it’s fake or authentic.

Barry murphy

 

Well, the way this all reads is that they guarantee the authenticity but in another sentence they do not guarantee. It really seems like double talk to me (does anyone else wonder if Janus ever had arguments with himself?).

Anyway, I am fully aware of why they dont guarantee the authenticity of something they dont even own. That (and the liability it would bring) is obvious. I just think they ought to be a little more transparent.

 

I suppose this depends on whether you believe an expert's opinion is also a defacto guarantee.

Legally, they're certainly not the same; personally, I don't think they're the same. Others' beliefs may differ.

 

@Barry Murphy Thanks for clarifying and for correcting my post. Sorry for my misunderstanding. In that case, while I disagree with their overall handling of Nemo's matter, the auction house isn't totally off base suggesting NGC as an authenticity arbiter (though I personally feel Sear should be adequate for a refund in this case).

I've deleted my incorrect statement about NGC in my second post, which was still in editable mode. My original post, sadly, must remain.

 

To be honest, if you want a lifetime guarantee on everything you buy, I’d consider something else to collect besides ancient coins. Even a dealers guarantee only goes so far. Try returning a fake to NFA, Bank Leu, Sternberg, or ask Brad Bowlin about returning a $30,000 forgery to an IAPN dealer, that by the way Sear certified as genuine but was condemned by both NGC and the IAPN.

 

It can take more than 45 days just to receive a coin back from NGC.

 

NGC would be happy to examine the above posted coin and give you our opinion.

Having not seen the coin above in hand, I can’t really comment. I’ve seen fake coins with Sear certificates, and genuine coins that Sear rejected. We all make mistakes and sometimes have different opinions on authenticity. The dealer above is also allowed his own opinion and may in fact prove to be correct.


Barry Murphy

 

Forgeries are usually returned the same week unless part of a larger submission.

Barry Murphy