An Analysis of POP Reports of PCGS and NGC 70 Grades...

I buy any PCI graded coin MS/PR 70 coin I see offered! Twenty years from now the market will know the difference. They have been in business since 1986.

 

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing on this point. The market has definately spoken. The question is will it continue to speak in the same manner. Maybe, maybe not.

 

Pretty much.....

More than likely they can't even grade....and they are buying a holder and NOT a coin....if people would buy the COIN they would know that if its in PCGS or NGC holder it doens't matter beans....that said....I buy both PCGS and NGC coins....BUT the coins must be graded by me before I buy them.
I bought a NGC MS63 Washinton quarter the other day....the coin would grade MS64 maybe 5 if it wasn't for some darker toning.....some people wouldn't have even looked at the coin.....just the lable on the holder.

Speedy

 

Well alrighty then,

Using your logic, The market is then full of thousands and thousands of stupid buyers who have bought and sold coins coins graded by either NGC, PCGS, ANACS, etc., over the last 20 years and I guess they don't know what they are talking about!

I'll tell you want...just at the FUN show or this weekend at the Palm Beach Show in West Palm Beach (I went Thursday), you are right...all of those dealers and buyers must be stupid...especially that dealer selling boxes of PR69UCAM NGC 2004 and 2005 nickels (no Bisons) for only $15 each, right directly across the NGC table! What an insult! Selling these coins for less than the submission costs. NGC was NOT too happy with this particular dealer as they are trying to convince possible submitters to spend more than what this dealer was selling these coins for!

When push comes to shove, free market forces eventually weed out the best from the worst in any product or service. People in a free market have the ability to shop, investigate, research and choose which product is the best. In due time (20 years is long enough, wouldn't you say?), this period of time has also allowed customers in the numismatic community to figure out which service holds more weight ($$$) that the others too. It is part of our free enterprise system. You can carry your flag into battle all you want, but you are definitely ignoring the facts.

[BTW...those civil war flag bearers that marched over an open field into battle were usually shot first]

As you pointed out, I just did my analysis on PR70 coins. Let's look at the POP reports of some relatively common date Lincolns. For instance. I used these dates, because the likelihood of these common date coins being submitted, cracked out, and resubmiited again are very slim:

1938-S Lincoln 1c - Red

NGC:

MS64: 22
MS65: 130
MS66: 591
MS67: 637
MS68: 2

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 417
MS66: 1582
MS67: 210
MS68: 0

1950 Lincoln 1c:

NGC:

MS64: 13
MS65: 65
MS66: 352
MS67: 67

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 142
MS66: 361
MS67: 17

1955-S Lincoln 1c

NGC:

MS65: 285
MS66: 2696
MS67: 406
MS68: 0

PCGS:

MS65: 404
MS66: 1735
MS67: 188
MS68: 1

You can call these POP reports "junK", but when you take into account actual prices realized from the likes of Heritage/Teletrade/eBay as well as what dealers say straight out at shows/shops, plus a 20 year run, it is pretty hard to ignore the facts.

Quality and service are all perception. Dollars sold and dollars spent are in fact really. After all, that is the beauty of numbers. 2 plus 2 can only equal ONE answer.

I would encourage all members to investigate these numbers and the dollars realized on your own. It is okay to ask "why"?? I did, and after talking with various dealers and all of my travels to various coin shops, I feel pretty good about my conclusions.

 

I was saying that partly joking...see my ????

What I'm saying is that the people are NOT buying the coin....they are buying a holder---even dealers do that because they know that people will pay more for a lable with the letters PCGS on it more than the letters NGC....and yes I call that crazy...

I remember just a few weeks ago you were talking how NGC or maybe it was PCGS hadn't updated their POP for sometime and they aren't total right anyway....not everyone sends back in their lables....so yes in one "cents" of the word they are junk.....

As you say....I'm still new to this game (5 years) and I don't know how many years you have collected....and I'm still searching this out as always....I hope you are too.
From reports I read....from the many coins I view I still say NGC is more on the ball then PCGS in MOST cases.
When looking at FBL or FSB or FH there is NO way anyone can say that PCGS is better---that would not be fact.

Speedy

 

I didn't give NGC enough time to adjust their POP report, but they did ...and I even mentioned it in a post-folow-up-post, so yes...the likes of PCGS and NGC will adjust their POP reports.

I substantiated my argumemt with published reports from BOTH PCGS and NGC. In my previous example with the common date Lincoln cents (easily found in RED condition), I demonstrated three examples of where NGC gave out way more MS67 grades then PCGS. Is this a coincidence? After examining many of these reports, the numbers are pretty much similar across the board. On an average of 3 to 1, NGC gives out way more 67 grades than PCGS. Are you going to tell me, coin for coin, that NGC is getting 3 times more MS67 coins than PCGS? Or is it that PCGS is 3 times more likely NOT to hand out these top grades? You don't think other collectors are asking these questions? I have been asked and I am asking myself!

You say that NGC grades conservatively, but from what I have seen (in hand), what I heard, what I have read, and what I have been told, I am basing my conclusions not on personal feelinigs. Frankly, I could care less who does a better job. I have no financial interest in either these TPG's...but I would be a fool not to make sure my collection was as liquid as possible in the event I need to sell...so if I have to submit my raw coins, I just HAVE to use PCGS. I would be a fool if I didn't!

As for the other factor, dollars realized...well explain this:

Previous Prizes Realized History from Teletrade (I used Teletrade because I look at this auction house as somewhere between Heritage and eBay...with auctions going on all of the time)

Mar 1 2006 Silver Dollar 1885CC PCGS 64 $644
Mar 1 2006 Silver Dollar 1885CC GSA Hoard NGC 64 $560
Feb 27 2006 Silver Dollar 1885CC PCGS 64 $644
Feb 27 2006 Silver Dollar 1885CC PCGS 64 $644

Jan 16 2006 Small Cent 1940D PCGS 67 RD $134
Jan 15 2006 Small Cent 1940D NGC 67 RD $63
Jan 11 2006 Small Cent 1940D NGC 67 RD $53
Jan 8 2006 Small Cent 1940D NGC 67 RD $63

Feb 12 2006 Small Cent 1947D PCGS 67 RD $134
Oct 30 2005 Small Cent 1947D NGC 67 RD $78
Sep 5 2005 Small Cent 1947D NGC 67 RD $78
Sep 4 2005 Small Cent 1947D NGC 67 RD $84

Nov 23 2005 Small Cent 1975S Proof PCGS 69 DCAM $246
Nov 21 2005 Small Cent 1975S Proof PCGS 69 DCAM $258
Oct 30 2005 Small Cent 1975S Proof NGC 69 RD Ultra Cam $95
Aug 15 2005 Small Cent 1975S Proof PCGS 69 DCAM $146

Jan 29 2006 Small Cent 1941 PCGS 66 RD $50
Nov 2 2005 Small Cent 1941 NGC 66 RD $17
Oct 31 2005 Small Cent 1941 PCGS 66 RD $41
Sep 25 2005 Small Cent 1941 PCGS 66 RD $35

Jan 18 2006 Nickel 1927 PCGS 66 $672
Jun 20 2005 Nickel 1927 NGC 66 $550
May 9 2005 Nickel 1927 NGC 66 $578

Feb 26 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Ocean View NGC 70 Ultra Cam $47
Feb 8 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Ocean View NGC 70 Ultra Cam $78
Feb 5 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Ocean View NGC 70 Ultra Cam $68
Feb 1 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Ocean View NGC 70 Ultra Cam $63

Feb 27 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Western Waters PCGS 70 DCAM $168
Feb 27 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Western Waters PCGS 70 DCAM $168
Feb 27 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Western Waters PCGS 70 DCAM $168
Feb 27 2006 Nickel 2005S Proof Western Waters PCGS 70 DCAM $168

Mar 1 2006 Quarter 1950D PCGS 66 $63
Feb 19 2006 Quarter 1950D PCGS 66 $78
Jan 29 2006 Quarter 1950D NGC 66 $32
Nov 2 2005 Quarter 1950D NGC 66 $53

Jan 23 2006 Statehood Quarter 2002S Proof Ohio Silver NGC 70 Ultra Cam $63
Sep 18 2005 Statehood Quarter 2002S Proof Louisiana Silver NGC 70 Ultra Cam $63
Sep 14 2005 Statehood Quarter 2002S Proof Louisiana Silver PCGS 70 DCAM $588
Apr 17 2005 Statehood Quarter 2002S Proof Louisiana Silver PCGS 70 DCAM $468

Dec 14 2005 Statehood Quarter 2000S Proof New Hampshire PCGS 69 DCAM $14
Oct 31 2005 Statehood Quarter 2000S Proof New Hampshire PCGS 69 DCAM $14
Oct 23 2005 Statehood Quarter 2000S Proof New Hampshire PCGS 70 DCAM $336
Sep 14 2005 Statehood Quarter 2000S Proof New Hampshire Clad NGC 70 Ultra Cam $73
Apr 20 2005 Statehood Quarter 2000S Proof New Hampshire PCGS 70 DCAM $330

I could go on...but hey, I am open to all constructive arguments that I am way over my head if I don't buy the notion that NGC grades more conservaticely then PCGS. Look at the dollars...look at the reports. Feelings aside, I looking at facts and figures.

 

How can they when not everyone sends in the lables after they crack the slab....the POP reports shouldn't be used to see who is better.

I

You aren't going to change your mind and I sure ain't going to change mine so is there need to keep on talking about the same thing....

Same with me....from what I see IN HAND and hear and read and have been told NGC is better and PCGS is just a fad that has been going on for 20 years....fad changes and it might change any time.

I have a suggestion.....as we know PCGS may be harder on MS/PF70 coins....but fact shows that NGC is harder on Franklin halves.....now here is my suggestion and I want to see what you think about it.

Send in the higher grade MS/PF70 coins to PCGS.....but wouldn't it be smarter to send the Franklins to NGC?
The hobby KNOWS that NGC is harder on them and prices show that they bring better prices in most cases (This may not be online....but at shows it is offen the case).
So if you are really wanting to get the most....I suggest sending your coins to not 1...but maybe 3 grading Co.....PCGS for some coins....ANACS for some and NGC for some also.

I would like to know what holes are in that thinking?

So were all of these coins the same looking....were the bag marks in the same place....was the toning looking the same on each coin.....each coin is like a fingerprint....if the coin has neat toning it will always bring more $$$....if one has a mark on the face but the other one has 3 but non on the face it also just make "cents" that the one that doesn't have the mark on the face will bring a better price.
You can't just look at numbers and prices...you have to look at the COIN......

You must be....because your not looking at the coins....only the holder (again...that was partly a joke )

Speedy

 

The simple solution to this conundrum would be to send the same coin (coins for more definitive results, and also coins of different series) in to each of the three top tiers. Until someone does this on a decent sized scale, we really won't have any definitive results.

 

I just attended the Palm Beach show and NGC coins were NOT selling for higher prices for the same coin in the same grade compared to PCGS. My best buy...a 1909 VDB 1c graded by NGC as MS66RD for $100. Definitely cracking it out and sending it to PCGS. If it goes at the same grade (which I hope), I can dump it for at least $200, so after submissions and all...I will net about $80. Remember, in 2009...Lincolns will be super hot!

Speaking of your dear Franklins (as you keep bringing them as your lone example time and time again), I went to Heritage's realized auctions and found some. How about a 1950 FBL in 65 and 66 grades from PCGS and NGC. They have great pictures and all...check them out!

Auction 412, Lot 1607 Saturday, March 4, 2006 66 PCGS $575.00
Auction 412, Lot 1608 Saturday, March 4, 2006 66 PCGS $1,380.00
Auction 412, Lot 1609 Saturday, March 4, 2006 66 PCGS $1,380.00
Auction 394, Lot 4179 Saturday, January 7, 2006 66 NGC $546.25
Auction 394, Lot 4180 Saturday, January 7, 2006 66 PCGS $805.00
Auction 388, Lot 2946 Saturday, November 5, 2005 66 PCGS $747.50
Auction 384, Lot 3578 Saturday, September 24, 2005 66 PCGS $460.00
Auction 376, Lot 6532 Friday, June 3, 2005 66 PCGS $632.50
Auction 372, Lot 7853 Saturday, May 7, 2005 66 PCGS $1,035.00

Auction 66022, Lot 23241 Sunday, February 12, 2006 65 PCGS $149.50
Auction 26013, Lot 11546 Tuesday, January 17, 2006 65 PCGS $195.50
Auction 26012, Lot 13193 Tuesday, January 10, 2006 65 PCGS $143.75
Auction 399, Lot 7629 Monday, December 19, 2005 65 PCGS $184.00
Auction 65113, Lot 23462 Sunday, November 20, 2005 65 NGC $143.75
Auction 65105, Lot 24251 Sunday, October 30, 2005 65 PCGS $149.50
Auction 65104, Lot 23270 Sunday, October 23, 2005 65 NGC $126.50
Auction 25102, Lot 11343 Tuesday, October 11, 2005 65 PCGS $172.50
Auction 25101, Lot 13525 Tuesday, October 4, 2005 65 PCGS $149.50
Auction 25071, Lot 11567 Tuesday, July 5, 2005 65 PCGS $149.50
Auction 65071, Lot 23428 Sunday, July 3, 2005 65 NGC $148.35
Auction 25064, Lot 13329 Tuesday, June 28, 2005 65 PCGS $184.00
Auction 65062, Lot 24815 Sunday, June 12, 2005 65 PCGS $138.00
Auction 65042, Lot 23312 Sunday, April 10, 2005 65 PCGS $126.50
Auction 65041, Lot 24437 Sunday, April 3, 2005 65 PCGS $155.25
Auction 25035, Lot 11398 Tuesday, March 29, 2005 65 PCGS $140.30
Auction 65033, Lot 24167 Sunday, March 20, 2005 65 PCGS $195.50

How about a 1955 CAM Proof Franklin in 67 and 68 grades?:

Auction 389, Lot 8166 Monday, November 7, 2005 68 NGC $276.00
Auction 385, Lot 8859 Monday, September 26, 2005 68 NGC $299.00
Auction 385, Lot 8860 Monday, September 26, 2005 68 NGC $253.00
Auction 65053, Lot 24114 Sunday, May 15, 2005 68 NGC $304.75
Auction 369, Lot 697 Monday, March 28, 2005 68 PCGS $460.00
Auction 367, Lot 1575 Monday, February 28, 2005 68 NGC $287.50
Auction 361, Lot 2340 Monday, January 17, 2005 68 NGC $276.00
Auction 24094, Lot 12373 Tuesday, September 28, 2004 68 NGC $270.25
Auction 353, Lot 1214 Monday, August 23, 2004 68 NGC $195.50
Auction 321, Lot 1497 Monday, July 26, 2004 68 PCGS $506.00
Auction 349, Lot 8574 Saturday, June 5, 2004 68 PCGS $720.00
Auction 346, Lot 7920 Saturday, May 8, 2004 68 PCGS $747.50

Auction 66021, Lot 24166 Sunday, February 5, 2006 67 NGC $161.00
Auction 399, Lot 7653 Monday, December 19, 2005 67 PCGS $195.50
Auction 25073, Lot 11798 Tuesday, July 19, 2005 67 PCGS $172.50
Auction 25062, Lot 13776 Tuesday, June 14, 2005 67 PCGS $161.00
Auction 25054, Lot 11368 Tuesday, May 24, 2005 67 PCGS $149.50
Auction 25012, Lot 25934 Tuesday, January 11, 2005 67 NGC $172.50
Auction 278, Lot 1418 Monday, December 13, 2004 67 PCGS $184.00
Auction 64114, Lot 24555 Saturday, November 27, 2004 67 PCGS $195.50
Auction 359, Lot 1415 Monday, November 8, 2004 67 PCGS $166.75
Auction 24094, Lot 12372 Tuesday, September 28, 2004 67 NGC $195.50
Auction 353, Lot 1213 Monday, August 23, 2004 67 PCGS $178.25
Auction 352, Lot 4149 Saturday, August 21, 2004 67 PCGS $201.25
Auction 347, Lot 929 Monday, May 10, 2004 67 NGC $178.25

How about the last year of your beloved Franklins in a 68 DCAM grade!?!:

Auction 401, Lot 8481 Monday, February 13, 2006 68 NGC $374.90
Auction 389, Lot 8176 Monday, November 7, 2005 68 NGC $276.00
Auction 385, Lot 8874 Monday, September 26, 2005 68 NGC $373.75
Auction 385, Lot 8875 Monday, September 26, 2005 68 PCGS $460.00
Auction 25083, Lot 11454 Tuesday, August 16, 2005 68 PCGS $474.95
Auction 383, Lot 968 Monday, August 1, 2005 68 PCGS $431.25
Auction 25052, Lot 11285 Tuesday, May 10, 2005 68 PCGS $299.00
Action 25022, Lot 14041 Tuesday, February 8, 2005 68 NGC $253.00
Auction 361, Lot 2357 Monday, January 17, 2005 68 PCGS $402.50
Auction 361, Lot 2358 Monday, January 17, 2005 68 NGC $218.50
Auction 360, Lot 8065 Saturday, January 15, 2005 68 PCGS $373.75
Auction 278, Lot 1430 Monday, December 13, 2004 68 PCGS $299.00
Auction 356, Lot 1357 Monday, September 13, 2004 68 PCGS $603.75
Auction 352, Lot 4158 Saturday, August 21, 2004 68 PCGS $345.00
Auction 350, Lot 567 Monday, June 7, 2004 68 PCGS $322.00
Auction 347, Lot 935 Monday, May 10, 2004 68 NGC $235.75
Auction 24023, Lot 11554 Tuesday, February 17, 2004 68 PCGS $281.75
Auction 343, Lot 872 Monday, February 2, 2004 68 PCGS $207.00
Auction 336, Lot 7092 Saturday, January 10, 2004 68 NGC $189.75
Auction 335, Lot 1316 Monday, November 17, 2003 68 PCGS $258.75
Auction 331, Lot 1171 Monday, September 22, 2003 68 PCGS $235.75
Auction 330, Lot 7400 Saturday, September 20, 2003 68 PCGS $241.50
Auction 327, Lot 2126 Wednesday, August 6, 2003 68 NGC $184.00

You can call it a "20 year old fad", I call it REALITY. I am sure you can find an exception here or there...but I supported my argument with FACTS. Of course, my intention is not to convince you, but let other members research, look, and examine the existing data for themselves. Me? I like to support my opinions with research. It makes it easier for all readiing these posts.

At least I got you to agree that NGC is liberal in 70 grades compared to PCGS. I don't collect Franklins so I will have to take your word...but apparently, the rest of the Franklin buyers haven't got the memo.

 

Some E-Bay statistics

After I read the recent Coin World article about the number of new slabbing organizations, I went to EBay and made a very unscientific survey of slabbed coins they had for sale. I was interested in pointing out the obviously different grading standards. SGS stands out like a sore thumb in the number of 70 grades. But I think this is not a surprise, most of the readers here are very aware of these differences in grading standards. So when we start arguing about differences between well regarded companies -- I am reminded of the famous GBS line:
"We have already established what you are Madam, now we are just negotiating the price." As long as there aren't industry wide standards, there will be this kind of drift of grades between different graders. The individual companies rely on multiple opinions because individuals differ. Why should that be limited to only those graders on their staff? I think the problem lies in people forgetting the inherent imprecision of grades. If we acknowledged that MS67 means somewhere between MS65 and MS69, then the market will become more sane.

I apologize for not including the numbers, but I am still trying to figure out how to transfer a spreadsheet to this forum.

 

09S-VDB.....that really won't help as PCGS and NGC grade by their own standers and they aren't alike.
What it would show is that if you sent the same coin to PCGS maybe 10 times you might get 2-3+ grades...but more than likely NGC would give it the same grade everytime.

Midas

I would agree that they might be...in fact I'm pretty sure...

About the 70 grade....I have told you before that I would research it and I did....I talked to many collectors and dealers....searched read and read....and there are some points in that way.....but that is about the only point that points that way.
As for Franklins....it only goes to prove my point that people are buying the HOLDER and not the coin....true collectors of Franklins KNOW that fact and buy NGC when buying FBL coins.

You can see that in the Heritage auction list you quoted.....some of the NGC coins went for the same price or higher than PCGS in some cases....that was more than likely a TRUE Franklin Collector.

Sorry---since I'm a collector of Halves that is why I do it...kindof like you always useing the Cent
It is a fact....check it out....that NGC is harder than PCGS on Franklin halves.

You mean that people in FL don't buy coins....they buy HOLDERS??.....up here in KY when a show is in town the coins are priced by the coin....if that is SEGS or NGC or AANCS or PCI or PCGS....they are priced and bought for the coin....the slab is just that....a slab to hold the coin.

Speedy

 

Where? Maybe a NGC graded Franklin in 2006 sold for more dollars than the same grade from PCGS in 2003! Do you know how to compare 'real' dollars adjusted after a given time period. That is what we call, inflation.

After reading some of your comments, it occured to me that you may not understand statistical analysis or what is the differance between mean, mode and delta values. I thought I outlined the values in a way so people with 5th grade education could easily understand. I also did not take into consideration that what used to be 5th grade requirements is now 10th grade levels in some states...so I apologize if these numbers are too difficult for you to grasp.

I also previously stated that you may have an exception (not the rule) here or there and surely a coin's value is worth more in 2006 than it was in 2004...all things being equal. Here's my favoarite line: "That was most likely a true Franklin collector." Funny...I didn't remember reading the auction listings where NGC slabbed Franklins were only sold to "true" Franklin collectors. When I read a statement like that? I have to ask, what Kool-Aid are you drinking??

I never been to a coin show in KY, but I have to believe that The Palm Beach Show and the F.U.N. Show in Florida have just a tad more dealers/collectors/quantity/quality of coins over what you may see in the blue grass state.

The Florida United Numismatists is host of the nation's largest coin show, held annually at the beginning of January. Over 15,000 collectors and 400+ dealers from around the U.S. and the world converge in Florida for the first show of every year.

You are absolutely right...all of these people buy holders down at the these shows. The auction houses like Heritage that sell MILLIONs of dollars in rare coins in Florida all have stupid buyers as well.

I guess we need to upgrade our numismatic education level to the great state of KY.

 

I buy a lot of morgans in mint states ranging from 63 to66 and I agree yhat PCGS coins tend to bring more money on sale, but I dont think there is any PERFECT grading sevice for now or for the future.I often disagree with both of these services but the bottom line is what you think of the coin.If it looks good to me it probably will look good to another collector. usePCGS and NGC only as a guide,but not gospel.One dealer said to me at the Saint Louis coin show in FEB 06 tthat hte only ones getting rich in this business are the four major sevices. How do we know that one of these top sevices wont be discredited for ethic violations or fraud at some point? Would you bet a lot of money that this couldn't happen?

 

I can't see what benefit the likes of PCGS, NGC, ANACS or ICG would see by participating in fraud or ethic violations. These four TPGs have proved themselves to the coin community. The future of their TPG business rests in grading and slabbing moderns and the last thing any of these services would want ANY bad press. Any short term benefit would not be worth losing millions in further submissions.

I can't see how one service would intentionally grade a coin a 66 instead of a 65 for the benefit of a few thousand dollars when they could lose everything they worked for.

Could it happen? Like everything, sure it can. However you are more likely to see that on eBay's "alphabet of slabs" (i.e., SGS, NNC, etc.) than with the likes of the top four.

Let me put in this way...it is already happening with sellers like Aboncom and their back room where loose change is "packaged" in SGS holders and sold as PR70 or MS70.

 

I would agree but Franklins haven't gone up like that---Franklins have stayed the same for sometime....and if you look at some coins you will see the price for 2003-2006 dropping....not going up...so I don't htink its inflation...I thought about that.

Yes I do understand them....in fact I have been going back over them some to make sure I do....

My statement is still true....it was more than likely a person who wasn't buying the holder but the coin and knew that NGC was better....a true Franklin Half collector would know that.

True---we have about 50 so odd dealers at the show I go to...but bigger isn't always better.

They sell coins to millions of Investers and dealers that are looking at the slab.....they aren't stupid but they just haven't learned.....

It would help that hobby that is for sure....in my many trips I have gone to coin shops when I can....or at least read their adds around there....for the most part dealers in KY are selling the coin where as others tend to be more hyping up teh slab.....I'm sure that we have people like that here in KY too.....but it sure it great to grow up in a place where holders are sold just as they are....a holder.

Speedy

 

Question, please.
Could not this data be slightly off because more folks submit to NGC than PCGS?
I know personally, I prefer ANACS and NGC for Franklins and have only submitted to them.

btw: remarks about my education level and where I am presently located would not be called for to answer the above question.
Thank you

 

So let me see if I can summorize & do some conclusions....

PCGS: Stricker in handing out MS/PR70 grades, and are higher valued coins.
Collectors of the PCGS registry & dealers who hope for MS/PR70 & deal to PCGS members submit coins there.

NGC: Less strick on giving MS/PF70 grades. More collectors send in coins because of the chances of getting this grade & lower submission costs. Lower valued coins.

BUT

If I had a coin that would grade 69 at PCGS, and I send it to NGC and get a 70, is my coin now valued more in a NGC holder in 70 than a PCGS holder in 69?

 

Look at the total amount of submissions for a given coin. Then take the amount of 70 grades divided by the this total to come up with a decimal number. Multiply this by 100, add the % sign and that is how you can look at these numbers, service to service!

For instance, and even though it has been noted I collect primarily Lincolns, lets look at a couple first year issues: 1986 MS American Silver Eagle and the 2000-S SAC Proof dollar: Both of these coins sold out quickly as you would expect with a first year issue. As time elapsed, I can confidently say that the majority of these coins that WERE going to be submittd, have in fact been submitted to the TPG's.

Again, it is also my contention that the number of submitters who would actually break out one of these submissions from another grading service in hope of a obtaining a higher grade or cross-over would have been very small. So I believe these numbers are accurate.

So let's go back to real numbers and not opinions:

1986 MS American Silver Eagle:

PCGS reported that they graded 3,710 submissions. Out of these submissions, 3 received a MS70 grade. 3 divided by 3710 equals .0008086. Multiply that by 100, add the % notation and you get: .0808% of all submissions received the 70 grade.

For MS69 grades, PCGS awarded 2,728 grades or 73.53% of all submissions.

NGC reported that they graded 38,476 submissions! Out of these submissions, 447 received a MS70 grade. 447 divided by 38,476 equals .011617. Multiply that by 100, add the % notation and you get: 1.1661% of all submissions received the 70 grade.

For MS69 grades, NGC awarded 37,828 grades or 98.32 of all submissions.

Just for this coin alone, NGC awarded grades of MS69 or higher at a rate of 99.48%. PCGS only awarded MS69 or higher grades to the rate of 73.61%

Compared to PCGS, NGC handed out over 14 times MORE 70 grades. Yes, as per your post they graded more and I am sure some people would say (without any fact or support basis) that NGC is probably getting better coins and submissions over PCGS, but you draw your own conclusions.

What about those 2000-S SAC Proof $1's?:

Here the number of submissions is pretty even.

Out of these 2000-S SAC Proof submissions, PCGS awarded 31 PR70DCAM grades out of 6,027 submissions. That equals .514%.

They also awarded 5,129 PR69DCAM grades which equals to: 85.10%

Out of these 2000-S SAC Proof submissions, NGC awarded 344 PR70UCAM grades out of 6,087 submissions. That equals 5.65%.

They also awarded 5,523 PR69UCAM grades which equals to: 90.73%

Conclusion: NGC awarded almost 11 times more 70 grades than PCGS. Also, they awarded more 69UCAM grades as a percentage compared to PCGS.

More likely than none, yes.

A NGC PR70UCAM is worth more than a PCGS 69DCAM, but no where as much as a PCGS PR70DCAM. When you analyse the total about of submissions and the percentage of those coins that were awarded a 70 and 69 grades for NGC compared to PCGS, the numbers have proved that NGC awards these submissions 3, 5, 10, sometimes 15 times MORE than 70 grades compared to the percentage of 70 grades awarded by PCGS.

Also NGC awards more 69 grades as well. The numismatic community (at least at the Florida FUN show) along with the majority of marketplace recognizes this, and hence the reason why NGC 70 coins do NOT carry the market premiums as do PCGS 70 grades. It is also another reason why PCGS 69 grades carry more weight than NGC as well.

As I stated earlier, just because a coin was awarded a given grade of say, 69DCAM, it still would be very unlikely that a submitter would break it and resubmit it to either the NGC or PCGS. You have to take the cost of acquiring the coin along with submission costs and their S&H to justify if such an action is worth it.