Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Amazing old crusader sword
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="+VGO.DVCKS, post: 7960155, member: 110504"][USER=87809]@cmezner[/USER], you're in luck; they're Really thick on the ground at this point, frequently with prices to match, from Vcoins to Ebay to auctions on, for instance, Biddr.</p><p><br /></p><p>Besides how iconic the coins are, the earliest and commonest ones are of Bohemond III, whose majority as prince of Antioch (1163-1201) goes all the way from the high tide of the Frankish kingdom of Jerusalem during the reign of Amaury (1163-1174 ...receding from Baldwin III? maybe <i>just </i>a <i>little</i>), to the fall of Jerusalem and the Third Crusade (Richard, and so forth), c. 1187-1191, to the dawn of the no less fascinating earlier 13th century. With appropriate relaxation about the sheer scope of the chronology, you get a Lot of historical bang for your buck.</p><p>Here are a couple later examples, posted recently.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379961[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379959[/ATTACH]</p><p>Frankish Antioch, Bohemond IV, "<i>ca.</i> 1210-1216 or later" (Malloy). AE pougeoise. (...<i>Very</i> fractional denier; the 12th-c. kings of Jerusalem were issuing AR oboles, or half deniers. --Right, for ancients folk, this shows you how anachronistic, and correspondingly fragmentary the denominational legacy of Classical times was, at this interval. People could read and even write Latin --yep, in Western Europe, even Greek, sometimes-- but usually badly.)</p><p>Obv. Fleur-de-lis, wedges in upper angles; "+BOHMVNDVS"</p><p>Rev. Cross; "+ANTIOCHIA". (Malloy (1994), Antioch #62.)</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379967[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Bohemond V (possibly late IV), 1233-1252. (Bohemond IV being 1201 to --you get points if you guessed this already-- 1233. Naturally, if you knew that already, all you get is a chance for the t-shirt or the coffee cup.) Malloy (1994), 126.</p><p><br /></p><p>...Evoking a related discovery, which was in academic news over the last couple of weeks. This was supposed to be a separate OP, but life intervened. Starting from the draft.</p><p>Found this the other day. The article links to one in a journal, for anyone who wanted to pursue it further. But, Promise, the source here has its own academic credentials.</p><p><a href="https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/the-brutality-of-the-crusades/?mqsc=E4137619&dk=ZE13O0ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=10_11_21_The_Brutality_of_the_Crusades_sponsored" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/the-brutality-of-the-crusades/?mqsc=E4137619&dk=ZE13O0ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=10_11_21_The_Brutality_of_the_Crusades_sponsored" rel="nofollow">https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/the-brutality-of-the-crusades/?mqsc=E4137619&dk=ZE13O0ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA Daily Newsletter&utm_campaign=10_11_21_The_Brutality_of_the_Crusades_sponsored</a></p><p><br /></p><p>A couple of things jump out at me. First, from this single, apparently intact mass grave (even if some of the skeletons were not), some of the bones were carbon-dated to the mid-13th century. As the article notes, this corresponds to two attacks on Frankish Sidon, by the Mamluks in 1253 and the Mongols in 1260. The former was led by none other than the future Mamluk sultan of Egypt, Baybars, during the so-called 7th Crusade of Louis IX /St. Louis. Baybars went on to decisively repel the Mongol invasion of 1260; proceeding to capture Antioch in 1268, and to attempt the assassination of the future Edward I during his crusade of 1270.</p><p>But back to Louis' crusade, Baybars also played a prominent role in the Battle of Mansourah in 1250, which Joinville's memoir describes in vivid detail. Wish your edition /abridged translation was better than my two of the latter; but it underscores the level of violence that 13th-century warfare got up to. ...The one redeeming feature is that, of necessity, it took place on a relatively small scale, by comparison to either the Classical or modern periods.</p><p><br /></p><p>Here's my only dirham of Baybars, with the needed heraldic tiger or panther in the lower obverse field. (There's a recentish thread here, with some very well-informed commentary on this very subject.)</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379981[/ATTACH]</p><p>Baybars, Mamluk Sultan of Egypt 658-676 AH, 1260-1277 CE. Album 2nd ed., 1998, 883.</p><p><br /></p><p>...The other thing from the article on this mass grave that made me sit up is that DNA tests on the skeletons concluded that the soldiers, apparently consisting mainly of professional infantry, were variously of Frankish, Arab and Franco-Arab descent. This is fun, as an indication of the degree to which the mixed Arab population (witness the Vietnam War, for precedent in reverse) were integrated into Frankish society. Contemporary precedent for this abounds, at least in the broader, cultural sphere: in Iberia, during the earlier phases of the Reconquista, Muslims and Jews were prominent in the administration of newly conquered cities, while in Norman Sicily, princes were educated by Muslim tutors. You can begin to smell a time which was effectively prior to the invention of racism in any modern, ideological sense of the term. ...In order to get pseudo-science, you need scientific vocabulary to mess with. In the absence of that, well, it kind of didn't happen. ...More along the lines of, 'I'm vanilla, you're chocolate (or coffee). ...Well, Wait a minute, I Like chocolate!'</p><p><br /></p><p>...Well, Sure, why not, here are my two deniers of Baldwin III, not posted for a minute or two.</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379986[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379987[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]1379988[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="+VGO.DVCKS, post: 7960155, member: 110504"][USER=87809]@cmezner[/USER], you're in luck; they're Really thick on the ground at this point, frequently with prices to match, from Vcoins to Ebay to auctions on, for instance, Biddr. Besides how iconic the coins are, the earliest and commonest ones are of Bohemond III, whose majority as prince of Antioch (1163-1201) goes all the way from the high tide of the Frankish kingdom of Jerusalem during the reign of Amaury (1163-1174 ...receding from Baldwin III? maybe [I]just [/I]a [I]little[/I]), to the fall of Jerusalem and the Third Crusade (Richard, and so forth), c. 1187-1191, to the dawn of the no less fascinating earlier 13th century. With appropriate relaxation about the sheer scope of the chronology, you get a Lot of historical bang for your buck. Here are a couple later examples, posted recently. [ATTACH=full]1379961[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1379959[/ATTACH] Frankish Antioch, Bohemond IV, "[I]ca.[/I] 1210-1216 or later" (Malloy). AE pougeoise. (...[I]Very[/I] fractional denier; the 12th-c. kings of Jerusalem were issuing AR oboles, or half deniers. --Right, for ancients folk, this shows you how anachronistic, and correspondingly fragmentary the denominational legacy of Classical times was, at this interval. People could read and even write Latin --yep, in Western Europe, even Greek, sometimes-- but usually badly.) Obv. Fleur-de-lis, wedges in upper angles; "+BOHMVNDVS" Rev. Cross; "+ANTIOCHIA". (Malloy (1994), Antioch #62.) [ATTACH=full]1379967[/ATTACH] Bohemond V (possibly late IV), 1233-1252. (Bohemond IV being 1201 to --you get points if you guessed this already-- 1233. Naturally, if you knew that already, all you get is a chance for the t-shirt or the coffee cup.) Malloy (1994), 126. ...Evoking a related discovery, which was in academic news over the last couple of weeks. This was supposed to be a separate OP, but life intervened. Starting from the draft. Found this the other day. The article links to one in a journal, for anyone who wanted to pursue it further. But, Promise, the source here has its own academic credentials. [URL='https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/the-brutality-of-the-crusades/?mqsc=E4137619&dk=ZE13O0ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_campaign=10_11_21_The_Brutality_of_the_Crusades_sponsored']https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/the-brutality-of-the-crusades/?mqsc=E4137619&dk=ZE13O0ZF0&utm_source=WhatCountsEmail&utm_medium=BHDA Daily Newsletter&utm_campaign=10_11_21_The_Brutality_of_the_Crusades_sponsored[/URL] A couple of things jump out at me. First, from this single, apparently intact mass grave (even if some of the skeletons were not), some of the bones were carbon-dated to the mid-13th century. As the article notes, this corresponds to two attacks on Frankish Sidon, by the Mamluks in 1253 and the Mongols in 1260. The former was led by none other than the future Mamluk sultan of Egypt, Baybars, during the so-called 7th Crusade of Louis IX /St. Louis. Baybars went on to decisively repel the Mongol invasion of 1260; proceeding to capture Antioch in 1268, and to attempt the assassination of the future Edward I during his crusade of 1270. But back to Louis' crusade, Baybars also played a prominent role in the Battle of Mansourah in 1250, which Joinville's memoir describes in vivid detail. Wish your edition /abridged translation was better than my two of the latter; but it underscores the level of violence that 13th-century warfare got up to. ...The one redeeming feature is that, of necessity, it took place on a relatively small scale, by comparison to either the Classical or modern periods. Here's my only dirham of Baybars, with the needed heraldic tiger or panther in the lower obverse field. (There's a recentish thread here, with some very well-informed commentary on this very subject.) [ATTACH=full]1379981[/ATTACH] Baybars, Mamluk Sultan of Egypt 658-676 AH, 1260-1277 CE. Album 2nd ed., 1998, 883. ...The other thing from the article on this mass grave that made me sit up is that DNA tests on the skeletons concluded that the soldiers, apparently consisting mainly of professional infantry, were variously of Frankish, Arab and Franco-Arab descent. This is fun, as an indication of the degree to which the mixed Arab population (witness the Vietnam War, for precedent in reverse) were integrated into Frankish society. Contemporary precedent for this abounds, at least in the broader, cultural sphere: in Iberia, during the earlier phases of the Reconquista, Muslims and Jews were prominent in the administration of newly conquered cities, while in Norman Sicily, princes were educated by Muslim tutors. You can begin to smell a time which was effectively prior to the invention of racism in any modern, ideological sense of the term. ...In order to get pseudo-science, you need scientific vocabulary to mess with. In the absence of that, well, it kind of didn't happen. ...More along the lines of, 'I'm vanilla, you're chocolate (or coffee). ...Well, Wait a minute, I Like chocolate!' ...Well, Sure, why not, here are my two deniers of Baldwin III, not posted for a minute or two. [ATTACH=full]1379986[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1379987[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1379988[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Amazing old crusader sword
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...