Ah, US coin collectors....

That’s your subjective opinion of rarity then. Which you are 100% entitled to have, of course.
For those who want to bring their hobby closer to science, objective criteria need to be established to a larger extent.
As a Morgan man, I’m sure you are used to The Sheldon Coin Grading Scale.
Sheldon also created a scale for rarity, as you probably know:

R-1 = common, R-2 = not so common, R-3 = scarce
R-4 = very scarce (population estimated at 76-200)
R-5 = rare (31-75)
R-6 = very rare (13-30)
R-7 = extremely rare (4-12)
R-8 = unique or nearly unique (1, 2, or 3)

This is, to my knowledge, the most widely used scale of rarity. One does not start applying the word «rare» until there are less than 75 specimen known.

When a modern coin where several thousand samples exist is being described as «rare», one has chosen to not operate with the accepted standard. TPGs that do this with the grading scale, have been subject to a lot of criticism. Why shouldn’t this be the case with the other Sheldon scale; the one of rarity?

When a company market a brand new coin with a mintage of 240 000 as rare, I am willing to use the word «ridiculous» about that. My thesaurus describes «ridiculous» as «deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd.» I think that’s the correct term in this case.

English is a great language with a wide variety of words and expressions. I’m quite sure there are other words to describe the connection between supply, demand and price, than «rare». That term has been defined, and no Morgan dollar meets the criteria.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I'm a modern collector and this is a drive-by comment - please take offense.

You ancient guys do way too much navel gazing...what are you looking for in there?

 

There’s a doubled-die 1963 Lincoln Wheat Cent in XF40 stuck in there somewhere. I need to get it out and submit it to the PCGS. It’s unique.

 

I did, how dare you challenge our traditions and sacrificial ceremonies!

 

I believe Alegandron has stated the view I hold also. I have no problem with people who collect modern coins. The problem is that I get tired of them dropping in the Ancient section and telling us that we don't know how to collect coins. I still have the moderns I collected before making the switch to ancients. Below is one I particularly like. I got it in change when I was in Junior High School so it cost me a quarter. I might be able to sell it for more today, possibly even to someone who would not melt it. Not being a key date, MS65 or in plastic makes it meltable to some since there are a million better ones so I will keep it. I may be wrong viewing the modern hobby as coins either in plastic or in the melting pot but that is the impression I get.


Question: Why is the U in Trust made as a V? The other English words on the coin use the U reserving V for the Latin words. I see the latest coins us U for everything. I have no idea when the change was made. If I saw more discussions on things like that rather than the spot silver price and how to crack slabs and resubmit for profit, I might collect moderns.

 

Nice "modern" definition of rare.

 

Those discussions are there, and it takes a bit of time to learn where to find them - you just have to know who the interesting posters are and stalk them.

 

That’s an interesting topic.
I tried to ask a question about the iconography on the type 1 SLQ on a thread here yesterday, comparing the image of Liberty to the ancient images of Virtus (as discussed previously on this forum.) It wasn’t interesting.
Nice coin to find in your change!

 

When I was a member of the Boston Numismatic Society from the mid 1970s to the 1990s, there was a group of ancient coin collectors who looked down their noses at any collector who specialized in U.S. coins. It didn’t matter how scholarly you were, you were “a lower form of collector” in their opinion. That was a very unfortunate, unwelcoming attitude. It didn’t help the organization attract very many younger collectors.

Rarity is a very relative term. It has to do with the number of pieces that have survived, but it also has to do with the size of the market. If you are criticizing those who tout most any recently issued product from the U.S. Mint, I am with you. The mintages have proven to be high relative to demand for much of this stuff after the initial interest dies down. Furthermore, the survival rates on the order of 99.99% of the original mintage.

If you referring to earlier U.S. coins, especially from the mid 1600s to the mid 1800s, that is another matter. Many of those coins are very scarce, especially in nice condition. I know because I specialized in type coins from 1792 to 1808 for many years. When you have a lot of collectors chasing after the same coins, they become “rare” because you opportunities to acquire them are limited.

Rarity has a function of supply and demand connected with it. Something can be rare, but if almost no one wants it, it does not matter.

 

LOL, great saying! I will use that.

 

All my ancient coins were made by machine, dies clashed all the time, die shifts were common, mules not unknown, strikes through grease and sweat.Obverses and reverses of high artistic merit alongside with cartoon characters, spelling long, loud and laughable and incoherent. Fussy flans, ragged edges, dodgy weights, flat strikes, broken worn dies suspect metal....some of the pleasures for ancient collectors and all the direct product of the human machine-the slave, at a time at a place for a reason that maybe wont elude us always.

 

Everyone marches to his or her own drummer. Everyone has varying tastes and preferences. While I do find a lot of hyping and promotion going on with US coinage, it does actually exist also with ancients, especially by the large bullion dealers.

I think there is a natural tendency for collectors to concentrate on coins of their own country, at least initially. That's basically how I started in the 1970's, collecting Morgan dollars by VAM variety. That interest did not last very long. Soon I branched out to world coins and ancient coins, lack of focus or attention deficit disorder, I suppose.

I now have very few US coins left, mostly "type" examples, but I am happy to have them. The preponderance of the collection is world and ancient coins, with my concentration now on the latter.

So, yes, the 1878 CC Morgan dollar is common, compared to the availability of many ancient coins, but we live in a world of relativity. So, for those collectors perusing US coins, may they find happiness, knowledge and fulfillment in their collecting endeavors!

 

No, my friend, I don’t think so.
How about curiosity and a desire to expand the horizon?
With what I have read from you here, that would be my hypothesis.

 

Hi Alegandron! Just to clarify, I know you didn't bold the words in question; that's why I had written "emphasis mine." I also believe that you weren't trying to intentionally cause offense, and that wasn't what I, in my rather impulsive way, was trying to say, either. We're good--at least on my end!

It was interesting to read your personal experiences, and I can identify with much of what you said. That said, I'm sorry that your experience of US coins went south, but I am very glad that you are here in the ancients, and you have a lot of great coins!

Finally, regarding the questions of modern collectors like "what's it worth?" I think that's how we people learn. Let's say I fall in love with a coin. The first question I might ask will almost certainly be "how much does it cost?" This is because I am hoping that I can acquire this wonderful piece, and I want to know if I can buy it now, or if I have to sell something to help fund it, or if I should just give up. Similarly, "what's its grade?" is the next question I will ask. This is because I need to learn more about ancient grading, and also it helps me to know more about buying the kind of coin that it is (for example, whether or not I can go up a grade, or if I need to come down). And finally, I can almost never buy a coin on impulse. There's normally a period of weeks to months in which I slaver over my beloved new coin-to-be, research and learn more about it, and so on. And then after I buy it, the slavering and the research continue! ;-)

That was a very gracious response, Doug, and I mean that sincerely. By the way, nice quarter! I have one single US quarter--from 1964--the sort that gets melted by the thousand every few days. I still have it because my dad gave it to me when I was a boy.

 

Btw, I think you and Doug are misinterpreting "melt". A dealer over 30 years ago told me almost no coins get melted, (especially US), since they are worth more to silver buyers as coins. "Melt" in US numismatics means no numismatic premium.

Now, this will vary depending on silver market price, at $40 an ounce almost all barber coinage in VG or less is "melt", at $18 they all have premiums.

Btw @Nathan B. I speak all aspects of collecting, (well maybe not MPCs and tokens, not that anything are wrong with them). I really was not meaning to offend anyone, since I collect a wide variety myself. Look where I post here.

 

Depends on the time frame. You are right it is a common term for describing things basically worth bullion price and in normal times there probably aren't a whole lot actually getting melted. During the metal price runups though a pretty good amount does actually get melted like several years ago when cash for gold type places were all over the place.

 

The last months I’ve been hearing about difficulties getting physical silver for spot. I wonder if that will lead to more common low grade silver coins going to the smelter.



Might be a good idea to get one of them there 2020 Silver Eagles from the Philadelphia mint after all....