Acetone and Copper

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Jaelus, Apr 16, 2018.

  1. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    The are several threads here on the acetone-copper situation, but I have to go and train some "scientists". Jim
     
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  3. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    That's not a euphemism, is it?
     
  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I just wonder how many people looked up soxhlet?
     
  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Is that like Skelly A, B or C?
     
  6. Aotearoa

    Aotearoa Currently Smitten with DBLCs

    Two chemists walked into a bar. Asked by the bartender what he wanted to drink, the first chemist ordered H20. The second chemist declared that he would like H20 too. The second chemist died.
     
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  7. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    And he was very pale. Cal
     
  8. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Petroleum ether, which is not really an ether, is a mix of low molecular weight aliphatic hydrocarbons. The Skellysolves are purer aliphatic hydrocarbons with A, B and C being n-pentane, n-hexane and n-heptane, respectively. So, pet ether is sort of a random mixture of the same compounds in the Skellysolves. All are highly volatile, very flammable, and vapors are explosive in presence of oxygen.

    Cal
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  9. Burton Strauss III

    Burton Strauss III Brother can you spare a trime? Supporter

    Don't forget that the destructive process required light, time and high humidity - they placed the acetone vessel in a water bath and let it evaporate. This created some acidic crystals which could then damage the surface.

    That's a pretty far cry from how we recommend using acetone. I'd suggest working in the shade if you work outdoors and avoid days with high humidity just to be safe. Sorry Houston & the rest of the gulf coast.
     
  10. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    I use acetone on copper all the time with great results. One instance where it didn't go as well as I hoped, however, is when acetone made my Wheat cent more lustrous (which isn't a bad thing, per se, but I really liked the way the patina looked).

    Here's the picture prior to the acetone bath - it had this really sweet matted pearl look brought on by the verdigris. But, I left the cent in the bath for a couple days or so, given all of the gunk. Had I known the matte appearance would completely "fall" off, I would have swished it around for a few seconds instead. I sent it into PCGS and they gave it an MS 64 RB - had it not been given the acetone bath, it most certainly would have come back as an MS 64 BN. Though again, I'd prefer the original look with a BN over an RB.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  11. Maxfli

    Maxfli Well-Known Member

    Congratulations!

    Yes, twice. Well, to be honest, it was with bronze, not copper.
     
  12. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    By the way, here's what it looks like now, post-acetone and post-PCGS. Probably in most cases, it would be a good thing to have the acetone remove any sort of layering on top of the coin. In this case, you can see that it very clearly brought back more of its luster and much more of the red color, enough to get it an RB color designation. But, it made it less appealing to me.

    upload_2018-4-16_22-21-14.png
    upload_2018-4-16_22-21-33.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  13. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    jeff,

    maybe 50%.
     
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The key word in your comment is "can". In other words, using acetone on copper might result in that coin turning a weird color, or it might not.

    As has been said, I've talking about this for years, many years, before CT even existed. And every single time I have done so I have stated quite clearly that - sometimes acetone can cause a copper coin to turn weird colors. I have never, ever stated that it always will.

    As for the possible reason being - something else on the coin - yeah, sure it's possible that's why it happens. And by the same token it is also possible that it was not something else on the coin but rather other outside variables that caused it. Ya see, the coin turning weird colors doesn't happen instantly, it happens over a period of time, maybe days or even weeks later.

    In any event, it doesn't really matter what causes it. The only thing that matters at all is that it sometimes happens !

    Both, I have seen it happen with my own eyes and I have read many, many reports from extremely knowledgeable collectors, professional graders, as well as many others. And I'm going back 20-25 years here - and it has never changed. It can and does happen. No, not always, but sometimes.

    The point to be taken away here is this. If the coin is copper, and that includes all copper coin alloys, use xylene instead of acetone. Xylene will, in almost all cases do the same things, remove the same things, that acetone does. But it will not cause the coin to possibly turn some weird color. I have never seen nor heard of xylene affecting a coin in any negative way.

    Are there exceptions to this ? Yes, there are, there are some things that xylene will not safely remove but that acetone will. But they are few and far between. So, use xylene first, if it doesn't work, then and only use acetone. Doing it that way removes almost all of the possible risk. You have absolutely nothing to lose by following this suggestion, and possibly a lot to gain. It's just that simple.

    Every time this discussion comes up there are always those, (and I believe you), who say - I used on acetone on copper for many, many years and never once had a problem. And to them, anyone else saying that acetone can or might cause a problem simply cannot be true. But that is false logic. Just because you haven't seen it - doesn't mean it doesn't exist, doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen. It merely means you haven't seen it happen.

    And no, I can't explain it chemically, I'm not a chemist and don't pretend to be. I am the one who years ago went and dug up the Stonybrook report and first posted about it. I did that to show that yes there are some cases where acetone can negatively affect copper. And usually if there is one, there is more than one - even if we don't know about it yet.

    But the bottom line is this, it doesn't matter why it happens, or what causes it. The one and only thing that matters is that sometimes it does happen. And if you can acknowledge that, you can also easily avoid it. So why not do so ?
     
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  15. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Takes me back to the "good old days" when I was becoming acquainted with chemical terms. We had hexane on the shelf and also had petroleum ether and what we called Skelly A, Skelly B and Skelly C "hexane". They all were aliphatic solvents with the A, B, and C separated by boiling point. I did a quick search for Skelly A, B and C and came up with this thread :). I also found this old advertisement...
    skelly.jpg
     
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