About byzantine denomination

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Herberto, May 16, 2020.

  1. Herberto

    Herberto Well-Known Member

    I found this in wikipedia:

    12345.png
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_numerals

    For those who are unfamiliar with the Byzantine denomination, then take a look here: https://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/acmbyz.html


    I wan to ask about two things:


    First:

    I can notice the "e"(5), "I"(10) "k"(20), but the "m" for 40 nummi is so wrong. It looks like a reverse "h". Can anyone explain me why there is a "m" for 40 nummi?

    Why do some people call "5" for pentanummi but other times for "pentanummion". Is it because "pentanummi" is fitted into the English tongue while "pentanummion" is a more original/greek one?




    Second:

    5 is pentanummi
    10 is decadummi

    But how do you say "20" and "40" with "nummi" to it. Because I always stuck on "half follis" and "follis".







    constantinople_1.jpg
     
    kevin McGonigal likes this.
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    How is M wrong? The alphabet started the 'tens digit' series with I for ten, K for twenty and lambda for thirty so the next letter is M for 40. It continues as expected through the alphabet until you get to 90 when the archaic letter qoppa was used even though that the 'modern' (post archaic) alphabet had dropped that letter except as a numeral and the city abbreviation Q for Corinth. I am disturbed by the chart you posted including as 'Byzantine' the lower case modern letter forms which do not appear on coins of the period. The 40 numeral M does also appear as a rounded lower case looking m but it never looks anything like what the show in that chart. Worse is the letter forms they show for 90 which I really would read as six in the Latin series used in the dating legends. The chart was not made by a coin person.
     
    David@PCC likes this.
  4. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    Or 20 nummi and 40 nummi.

    I just picked up a 12 nummi (I+B) and 16 nummi (IS) to add to my collection... Should arrive Monday.

    There is a 6 nummi with an S, a 4 nummi with IIII, a 30 nummi with XXX, etc.

    I was thinking the same thing with the G shape and even the one before that with the U (V) shape.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  5. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    Nice image of Constantinople with Hagia Sophia in the background (and without the much later Turkish minarets along side. As for the differences in the endings of pentanummion and pentanummi. The generic word for coin in early Latin was originally something like nummus (cf nomos) in Latin (as in numismatist). As a masculine noun of the second declension its plural form was nummi, hence, a decem nummi coin of ten of these little coins. The Greek speaking eastern part of the empire used the term nummion, making it a Greek noun but of neuter gender. In Greek (and in Latin, too) the plural ending of a neuter, second declension noun is an "a" so in the Greek speaking east a decem nummi, became a deka nummia. In strict usage I suppose the way to use these multiple nummia (or nummi) coins is either the Latin or Greek forms, but not to mix the two.
     
  6. rrdenarius

    rrdenarius non omnibus dormio Supporter

    Greek letters were used on late Roman and Byzantine commercial scale weights. You can see the progression on a table from Simon Bendall's book, Byzantine Weights.
    Bendall Wt Table.jpg

    Some of the symbols from the table above are in my collection. You can see that A was used for both one pound (Ass or Libra) and one ounce (VNCIA or uncia).
    DSCN4079.JPG

    I do not have a weight with S or IIII, but I have some on either side.
     
    NewStyleKing, Bing, tibor and 2 others like this.
  7. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    Here are my new coins I mentioned (nothing too beautiful, but I'm happy to have 'em):

    [​IMG]
    Justinian I, Ruled 527-565 AD
    AE 16 Nummi, Struck 527-562 AD
    Thessalonika mint

    Obverse: DN IVSTINI-ANS[sic] P P AVG, diademed, draped, and cuirassed bust right.
    Reverse: Large IS (value; I=10, S=6); above, cross; A to left, P to right; mintmark TЄS in exergue.
    References: DOC 98a, Sear 175
    Size: 27mm, 6.85g


    [​IMG]
    Maurice Tiberius, Ruled 582-602 AD
    AE 12 Nummi, Struck 582-602 AD
    Alexandria mint

    Obverse: DN MA-RIC PP A, laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right.
    Reverse: Cross between I-B (value; I=10, B=2) above line, mintmark AΛEΞ below in exergue.
    References: DOC 213, Sear 544
    Size: 14mm, 4.68g

    And I hadn't photographed this one yet, though I've had it about a year... today was a great day to do some outdoor photoing (when the clouds pass over the sun, that is... between that, it's a great day to be sipping a good brew to keep the temp down:joyful:):
    [​IMG]
    Vandals, Municipal coinage of Carthage
    AE 4 Nummi, Struck Circa 523-533 AD

    Obverse: Diademed and draped bust left, holding palm.
    Reverse: N/IIII (mark of value) in two lines in field, all within dotted circle.
    References: BMC Vandals 12 (Huneric), MEC 1, 55
    Size: 10mm, 1.18g
    Notes: The 4 nummi was 1/1000 of a gold tremisis.

    In spring 429, the entire Vandal kingdom migrated into Africa and took it with a force of 80,000 men. The Vandals would rule North Africa until the Eastern Romans (Byzantines) recaptured it in 534.
     
    Marsyas Mike likes this.
  8. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    A new denomination for me, a Byzantine 6 nummi with the giant S (on a very small coin).

    Byz - Heraclius 6 nummi May 2020 (0corr).jpg

    Heraclius 6 Nummi
    (613-618 A.D.)
    Alexandria Mint

    Blundered legend around cross potent on two steps / Large S.
    SB 862; DOC 198.
    (1.80 grams / 13 x 10 mm)

    Note:
    Date 613-618 A.D. from CNG Auction Sale XIX (1992) via Google Books.

    CNG also stated these were overstruck on counterfeit 12 nummi of Justinian that had been called in for revaluation.
     
    rrdenarius and Justin Lee like this.
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page