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Message:: [QUOTE="GDJMSP, post: 2838896, member: 112"]As you said it's not quite so simple. In a nutshell, proper cleaning is perfectly acceptable, always has been, because it does not harm the coin. Improper or harsh cleaning is not acceptable because it does harm the coin. But for literally centuries harsh cleaning was not only considered to be acceptable, it was the norm, it was even expected among collectors. It has only been in the last 50 years or so that collectors have come to recognize that harsh cleaning is a bad thing. As for dipping specifically, properly dipping a coin has always been acceptable. Most collectors have always accepted it, all of the TPGs have always accepted it and today they will even do it for you. But the key with dipping, as with all other forms of proper cleaning is that it must be done properly. That said, I will grant you that there are those think dipping a coin is a bad thing, and that it reduces the value of a coin. But in reality neither of these things is true. For one thing there are coins that need to be dipped, should be dipped. Why ? To protect the coin, to prevent the advanced stages of toning from literally destroying the coin - which it absolutely will do. As for reducing the value, if it is done properly this is almost never true. In fact it is far more common for dipping a coin to increase the value of the coin, sometimes by several multiples. The idea that dipping is bad and reduces value is rooted in the fact that when dipping is done improperly, when a coin is over-dipped, yes the coin is harmed and value greatly reduced. But the key there is that it is done improperly. And then there are also those coins that were already damaged, by advanced or terminal toning, or by other circumstances that were unable to be seen until after the coin was dipped because the toning was hiding them. As for being able to detect if a coin has been dipped, when it is done properly quite simply it can't be done - not by anybody. This is because dipping the coin properly does not harm the coin, it leaves behind no traces. Now pretty much everybody who is a member of this forum owns coins that have been dipped, and most own a lot of them - even if they don't know it. That is because 80% or more of ALL older coins have been dipped at least once in the lifetime of the coin. And yes that includes all of the slabbed coins. Think about that number, think about how big that number actually is. Then try and foster the argument that dipping is a bad thing. Lastly, copper coins. You would be hard pressed to find people who believe that copper coins can be successfully dipped. Most will tell you it simply can't done. But not only can it be done, it IS DONE, on a very regular basis. And the proof of this is right in front of your eyes even though you probably don't even realize that you have seen it. Seen it a lot in fact. By now you're probably sitting there thinking - he's crazy ! Does not know what he's talking about ! Everybody knows you can't dip copper ! Well, ask yourself this question - if copper coins cannot be successfully dipped then how is it that we have so very, very, many copper coins that have been graded MS RED ? And if you don't believe me, check the population numbers of graded copper coins sometime. The vast majority, and I do mean the vast majority of them, are graded MS RED. So how can that be ? I mean copper is the most reactive of our coinage metals. Just look at it sideways and it'll tone brown. Neither NGC nor PCGS will guarantee the color designation because even they know this to be true. So how is that we have all these copper coins that are 50, 100, 150 years old and yet they are graded MS RED ? Well, there's only one way, it's because not only can copper be successfully dipped, it is successfully dipped. A lot ![/QUOTE]

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