A Warning About Prooflike Morgan Dollars

Just thought I would share this.

I was looking at prooflike Morgan Dollars on Ebay and was shocked to see that 75% of the "prooflike" morgan dollars in the $30-$80 range on Buy it Now listings are not prooflike. Most of them look to be either very cleaned or advertised as prooflike when they are really just normal. Some are also altered to look prooflike.

Also, Beware of NGC, PCGS, ANACS, graded Morgan Dollars that are graded normal grades such as MS-63 but are advertised as MS-63pl. These are not prooflike, if they were grading companies would say so on the slab.

Just a word of advice, unless you know what to look for, only buy prooflike Morgan Dollars graded prooflike by the major grading services. Only buy them raw if you know how a prooflike coin is supposed to look and remember for good photos.

Here are examples of listings to avoid

Harshly Cleaned Coin:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-s-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-Proof-like-Detail-B-U-/351332445014?

Altered to Look Prooflike
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1878-P-7-TF...4824pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51cd0bab56
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1879S-Unite...674?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48643ee88a

Normal Coin Claimed to be Prooflike
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIGH-GRADE-...409?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4fbf4129

Real Prooflike:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-Morg...573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item234e012a4d

 

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My take on the coins:
1st linked 80 S: polished
78: cleaned, harshly
79 S: cleaned with photos to hide it
81 S: gashes on cheek will prevent a grade, other issues with the coin as well
80 S: too bad about the 2 lines on Ms. Liberty, still wouldn't pay that much for the coin.

 

I was going to write exactly the same thing as @jpcienkus, but he already did it for me.

That last one, even though there are pictures showing the reflections, the surface he uses for the obverse picture is just colored stripes. You can't tell if there's a clear reflection or not. The reverse is clearly at least semi-PL, and probably PL.

 

Honestly.... what would you expect, on eBay, in the "$30-$80 range"? I would expect nothing less than a few designated PLs in the upper range mixed in with a bunch of fluffed up junk. As for the rest, you're right in that people shouldn't buy what they do not know, or when too lazy to read a label, but an unfortunate fact of life is that most people both see and do only what they want to, especially when convincing themselves of a "deal".

 

The reflection on the towel is awsome.

 

I agree, instead of getting a "deal" do some research before you buy something, even if it means spending a bit more. If something looks too good to be true (In this case a prooflike Morgan for $40 on a Buy it Now Ebay Listing) stay away.

At my local coin shop I got my only prooflike morgan dollar for $60, graded by PCGS as PL. I'm pretty happy with it and feel like I did good. It was better seeing it in person before buying it.

 

I'll add to be wary of those that deal in "California Chromes" and are not up front about it.

 

It is only "prooflike" if it has been graded 'Prooflike" Somebody calling it anything other than the label that the TPG puts on the slab is misrepresenting the condition of the coin.

 

This certainly isn't to say that questionable calls are not made with raw coins, but a coin, be it PL, DMPL, junk, dreck, whatever, is what it is regardless of its holder.

 

By the logic of many on this board, that must mean that we should absolutely avoid PL coins all together. Better yet, raw problem coins are often manipulated, so we should avoid raw coins all together. But, hmm, the TPGs haven't always had it together either, maybe we should just avoid coins totally?

And to be clear to the OP, my sarcasm is not directed to you, but I am trying to parrot the logic of the "BEWARE OF RAINBOW TONING" thread or whatever it is called.

 

That is not true or necessarily fair. I collect PL type coinage (non Morgan Dollars) and PCGS does not attribute these as PL regardless of how deep the mirrors are and whether the coin is truly PL. Should that preclude someone from opining that it is PL? Should we blindly rely on labels?

I don't think so. I agree that keyword manipulation is a problem, but blindly relying on TPG labels in not an appropriate prophylaxis.

 

Hi Kenny. How long have you been waiting to use that word (bolded and underlined) in a sentence on CT? LMAO!

 

I am saying that, absent a direct standard, anybody can call anything proof like. Maybe all of the non- designated coins that you own are merely well- struck, and moderately reflective. See, different definitions from different people, with standards absent.

 

I think there are clear points beyond which any reasonable person would consider a coin PL. If it meets the criteria that the TPGs publish for Morgans, it's PL regardless of whether the label states it (because of TPG policy) or not IMO.

 

That is your opinion. See, absent of a standard, there is no agreement. You might call the coin PL, and I can look at the same coin and say " noooo, not enough reflectivity."

 

He is talking about the fact that PCGS does not designate PL on the type he collects, regardless of if the coin is worthy or not. As an example: PCGS does not use the designation on Liberty Seated type (among many others) whereas NGC does/will.

 

But there are accepted standards in the community, at least for Morgan Dollars (and there is no principled reason to distinguish other series). You could argue the latter, but the former is fairly well established within tolerances.

 

So, submit them to NGC and get the designation, if one wants it, and don't whine that PCGS doesn't offer said designation-- problem solved-- standard achieved.

 

So says you. Proof like in your august opinion. Not proof like in my enlightened opinion. Therefore, absent of evaluative standards, it is anything one wants it to be. Hence, the need for rubrics, standards, and professional evaluation is essential.

 

You are the one doing the whining. I am not complaining that PCGS doesn't offer PL designations on these coins. I am critical of the whining coming from you and the eBay police who think that sellers cannot add descriptions above and beyond the TPG labels. If people learned to think for themselves and heaven forbid if they actually know what they are doing before making an investment, there wouldn't be an issue.

**And to the OP, the comment about the "eBay police" isn't referring to you specifically. I too agree that keyword spamming should be cracked down on, but blatant over reliance of TPG labels in not an appropriate remedy and creates enormous problems of its own.