Featured A very rare coin of the Khazars

http://sarkel.ru/istoriya/kamni_i_nadpisi_bospora_sergej_kashaev_natalya_kashovskaya/
there, in Crimea, there were many antique Jewish tombstones and stones with inscriptions after the death of Ferkovich and especially in the last 50 years. I saw on Russian TV last year.

 

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Interesting thread. Here is a missing textual element that I think might be relevant?

It is from the ‘Book of Roads’ written in 836 AD by Ibn Khurdadhbah.

Khurdadhbah was spy-master for the Abbasid Caliph (perhaps a proto-Koestler?)

“The Radanites speak Arabic, Persian, Greek, Frankish, Spanish, and Slavonic. They travel backwards and forwards from the farthest west to the farthest east . From a starting point in Spain or France they cross the Mediterranean to Egypt, transfer their merchandise to camels across the isthmus of Suez to the Red Sea, from where by ship they can reach India and China. They return bringing musk, aloe wood, camphor, cinnamon, and other products of the oriental countries.

Likewise from the west they bring eunuchs, slave girls and boys, brocade, beaver and marten skins, and swords. They sell their goods in Constantinople and at the palace of the Franks. Sometimes, instead of using the Red Sea route to the East, they disembark at Antioch and cross Syria to the Euphrates and Baghdad. From there they go down the Tigris to the Persian Gulf, and so on to India and China.

They also travel by land. Thus these Jewish merchants proceed from the far West via Tangier, Kairouan, and the other North African towns, reaching Cairo, Damascus, Kufa, Basra, Ahwaz, Persia, and then on to India, before again, this time by land, reaching China.

Another of their routes lies across Europe, behind Rome, and through the country of the Slavs to Hamlin (Tail), the capital of the Khazars. From there they cross the Caspian Sea, thence to Balkh and Transoxiana, and so to China.”

Perhaps the text it needs further discussion? If so I am here……..

Rob T

 

Let me know if you want to swap it for a Rum Seljuq Lion and Sun (joke)

 

Fascinating post and very interesting coin. I had been unfamiliar with Khazar history and want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and coin!

 

I don't think anyone really knows where the Radanites came from originally. There are, of course, various theories!

 

Now that I'm home and not trying to type on my phone, I can explain what I mean: when there are as few primary sources as there are concerning the Radhanites*, and the two primary competing theories place their origins as far apart as France (where their trade routes began, and also because the Latin word for the Rhone River is Rhodanus) and in Mesopotamia (where a district supposedly existed with the name "Radhan"), it's rather obvious that nobody really knows anything as a certainty about their origin.

*The text quoted by @EWC3 is very famous; it's in every anthology I've ever seen about medieval Jewish history. Unfortunately, there isn't much else.

 

A very interesting article; thank you. (The Google Translate translation into English is easily understandable.) The photos are great; they remind me of the menorahs I saw carved into the stones of the ancient synagogue in Ostia Antica. I've never denied that there were Jewish communities living in "the Bosporus" (in Crimea) as long ago as Ancient Rome; there's never been a dispute about that. That has nothing to do with Firkowicz's own fraudulent activities, especially his efforts to prove that the Karaites were descended from such communities. And the article doesn't say anything specifically connecting these archaeological discoveries to the Khazars. (There are still, so far as I know, no such discoveries in "Khazaria" itself.) The article even mentions that the facts are "unclear" concerning "the conversion of the Khazar ruler and his entourage to Judaism." As I said before, of course, I don't really care one way or the other if it's ultimately proven that the Khazarian elite did, in fact, convert to Judaism. The much more important issue is the completely baseless attempt by certain people to establish a genetic connection between the Khazars and today's Ashkenazi Jews.

 

QUOTE="DonnaML, post: 4594506, member: 110350"] As I said before, of course, I don't really care one way or the other if it's ultimately proven that the Khazarian elite did, in fact, convert to Judaism. The much more important issue is the completely baseless attempt by certain people to establish a genetic connection between the Khazars and today's Ashkenazi Jews.[/QUOTE]

This thread began with a discussion of the widely reported conversion of the Khazars to Judaism. What I felt that initial comment missed was the matter brought out in the 1948 book by Rabinowitz. That in the Early Middle Ages Jews became important monetary experts in the Occident (much as Jains became monetary experts in India). This happened in the context of slotting into the gap between Islam and (Pagan) Scandinavia at Khazaria – but that was in no way unique - we also find them as the go-betweens in trade and diplomacy between Charlemagne and Harun. Operating as neutral players within what amounts to a period of religious Christian/Islamic cold war.

This particularly interested me ever since I discovered that England had adopted Islamic weight standards for coinage in the early medieval period – and really the only way that could happen is on the advice of Jewish emissaries visiting the Carolingian court.

Regarding your own input Donna

1) I do not consider the matter of “genetic connections” to be “much more important” than considerations concerning the matters of medieval global macro-economics ……..matters that once fascinated Del Mar, Pirenne, Bolin, Rabinowitz, Watson……... (and still fascinates little old me)

2) Interjecting hyperbolic and misleading statements about ‘genetic’ matters is a sure fire way to put a damper on historic global macro-economic discussion.

Rob T

 

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1. I was neither the first nor the second person in this thread to raise the importance of the Khazar descent issue to contemporary anti-Semitism. The argument that "the Jews" are not in fact "the real Jews" -- and, therefore, have no actual historical connection to Israel or to the Jews of the Hebrew and Christian Bibles -- is one of the major arguments continually repeated by anti-Semites, as well as by anti-Zionists who think it will further their cause. (In fact, it's a worthless distraction from the actual issues surrounding the I/P conflict.) And yes, as a Jewish person myself, I do consider issues significantly bearing on the analysis of contemporary anti-Semitism to be "more important" than considerations concerning "matters of medieval global macro-economics," as fascinating as you may find them. Especially given that nothing you've said is remotely novel; the significant role of Jewish merchants -- whether Radhanites or other Jews -- as economic intermediaries between the Christian and Muslim worlds in the early Middle Ages has been studied intensively for a long time. You should read the books of S.D. Goitein, among others, if you haven't already. As I'm sure you're aware, that role pretty much came to an end with the beginning of the Crusades, a development that had a significant causal effect on the growth of the role of "Jew as moneylender" in medieval Europe. Which obviously played its own part in contributing to anti-Semitism. In any event, we obviously disagree on the relative importance of certain issues.

2. Not a single word I wrote on the genetic issues is either "hyperbolic" or "misleading." I explained why I didn't include the many citations supporting my arguments -- they would have increased my already-lengthy post (which was intended as a general summary) to absurd proportions. In any event, I doubt that you're remotely qualified to discuss these issues, or, frankly, even to hold an opinion on them. I also doubt that this is an appropriate place for such a discussion. Not that I have any real interest in having a discussion with you about any subject, in any venue.

 

As I feared - I rather think that puts paid to the possibility of amicable dispassionate scholarly discussion on these matters.

Well, if anyone was interested I was hoping to link this to my recent comment on the Bar Kokhba thread. I have an idea that my approach to that matter – and its implications for Russian medieval weight standards – is indeed rather original. I am of course happy to listen to dispassionate evidence based criticism of that opinion.

I append the suggestion below in case Paschka or anyone missed it

It differs dramatically from Pritsak!

Rob T

 

As if your applying the label "hyperbolic and misleading" to my extremely well-supported position on the Khazar genetics issue -- the position of every geneticist who's studied the issue except for one crackpot whose arguments have been repeatedly and conclusively refuted, and also holds the view that Yiddish is fundamentally a Slavic language -- is conducive to "amicable dispassionate scholarly discussion"! OK, Boomer. The fact is that there is no room for "discussion" with you.

 

I am afraid that that the discussion in this thread has gotten a bit off-topic, and is in danger of devolving into personal invective that would not be worthwhile for anyone. I would ask everyone to please step back, chill for a little bit, and only continue the discussion if we can do so calmly and without any personal attacks. Also, it might be a good idea if we can try to steer the discussion back towards the better-established facts about the historical Khazars? Just a suggestion, offered in a spirit of good will to all our members here.

 

Fine with me.

 

No problem here staying chilled - but am not sure there are all that many uncontested facts to go on.

Thomas Noonan seems to be the main guy who wrote about the Khazar economy. I have not read all his works but what I have read seemed to me rather seriously flawed - am happy to discuss further if anyone has an interest. (I judge he gave an unsatisfactory account of North African dirhems, and focused entirely upon matters of demand from the Viking end rather than looking at the Islamic supply side situation).

Also Harvard distributed Pritsak's widely read account of the Khazar monetary system etc. I am afraid I think it was very poor - the sort of work that gives metrological studies a bad name. Again - am happy to discuss

Rob T

 

I would be interested in hearing your take on this, if you have the time?

 

@DonnaML, I think you're absolutely right to focus on debunking the Ashkenazi-Khazar nonsense. It's still a widespread misconception, I fear.

 

I have Pritzak on my desk - but for Noonan I have to rely upon memory - its quite a long time since I read him.

Noonan looked at the massive flow of silver dirhems out of Islam much of which ended up in Scandinavia. Seems this silver went along the Radanite trade route apparently called “Behind Rome” - a little of it went all the way to Ireland, but much dropped off earlier – amongst the Khazars etc.

In what I read Noonan explained this by focusing upon Viking demand for silver, within a society that had only recently discovered free trade. That seems correct but only half the story. At the same time Islam seems to be abandoning cash payment and moving towards slave owning selfdoms run by military elites. Islam was dumping silver overseas – probably largely in return for slaves. This was missing from Noonan's writings that I found. (Right back in the 1980’s I met an old man in Oxford who had given a paper in Sweden giving a more accurate account of these matters. In old age he was very disappointed at the way his work was just ignored or even scoffed at.)

Asking questions about such matters leads us to further little noticed facts. For instance, during the Viking period thousands of souterrains were built in Ireland. The only really convincing explanation of those structures is as 'slave raid shelters'. I do not ever recall seeing that matter linked into these discussions – yet the implications seem both obvious and plausible.

A second problem with Noonan is he spends a lot of time on a matter of so called “North African” dirhems weighing c. 2.73g. Now, about half the specialist academic numismatic community seem to correctly see that the intentional weight of the canonical dirhem was c. 2.93g. This conflicts with the 2.97g that many seem to think is rooted in Sharia law. It also conflicts with the alternative idea that dirhems had no weight standard – or that it varied wildly from 2.75g to 3.00g.

This big academic gulf here seems to be between

1) those who get their ideas from actually looking carefully at the coins.

2) those who choose to accept what they are told - in accordance with various dogmatic positions

So the problem was already bad enough without Noonan inventing a ‘2.73g North African’ red herring and throwing it into the mix - without any proper explanation.

Behind all these matters – what interests me at present is the clear possibility that (for instance) Russia’s official weight system derived rather exactly for one created by Herod. It would be nice to discuss that strange possibility, both the evidence and the implications. But people seem instead often driven by agendas which hardly seem rooted in scholarly curiosity at all.

Rob T

 

Thanks, Rob. Very interesting.
Does this imply that the magnitude of the slave trade of the vikings was greater than we have presumed?
I’ll post a map of the Rhadanite route, seems relevant:



I have always been told that Swedish vikings concentrated on the areas around the baltic sea, and ventured into Russia, while Danish and Norwegian vikings concentrated on Britain and Normandy. It’s probably a little more complex than this. I found a book online about the vikings and their silver trade, might be interesting:
https://books.google.no/books?id=LZ...QAQ#v=onepage&q=samanid dirhem sweden&f=false