A very difficult quiz for the weekend. What caused this characteristic?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Insider, Jul 23, 2021.

?

What caused this mark?

  1. Strike thru.

  2. Planchet flaw.

  3. Scratch.

  4. Die Crack.

  5. Lamination.

  6. Damage.

  7. None of the above.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    I know that you don't care for anything I have to say and that's fine. I was trying to give you some ideas of how to post images that are in focus. It would help others and your teaching. Ignore me, I have only been imaging coins for 40 years.
     
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  3. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    The issue on the Nickel is known as a DCA - Diverted Crevice Anomaly.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
    Insider likes this.
  4. Cliff Reuter

    Cliff Reuter Well-Known Member

    I've heard of "die sinking" in terms of creating dies. ie: A die sinker is a person who creates dies for coins and medals.

    (I have heard of the surface of a die getting a "pre-crack" bulge on the surface which shows up as a recess or slight indentation on the coin surface. The way I've thought of it is to imagine a subsurface die failure before that failure breaches the surface entirely. Someone please let me know if I'm not correct in my understanding. Thanks in advance.)

    Maybe you are using the term in reference to just before a cud is formed or a die splits and part of the die actually falls away. I'll be interested to learn more. Thanks to everyone here for their insight and knowledge.
     
  5. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    The correct term is die subsidence and this is what @Marshall is referencing. Hang around the EAC and BHNC guys and the term makes perfect sense. But you are correct, the term "die sinking" could be confusing if you haven't spent much time in those sandboxes.

    http://www.error-ref.com/die-subsidence/
     
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  6. Cliff Reuter

    Cliff Reuter Well-Known Member

    Thank you! Ah yes, the old "Goiter Neck". And thanks also for the link to error-ref.

    (I type quickly as I rush to the abbreviation dictionary to look up who is in those sandboxes. :happy:)
     
  7. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Google doesn't find any matches for "Diverted Crevice Anomaly"...?
     
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  8. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    :bookworm: That's because I just made it up :wacky:
    It sounds like a good descriptive explanation.. :hilarious:

    I shouldn't do that though.. Then you and others won't take me seriously :nailbiting:
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  9. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    ldhair, posted: "I know that you don't care for anything I have to say and that's fine. I was trying to give you some ideas of how to post images that are in focus. It would help others and your teaching. Ignore me, I have only been imaging coins for 40 years.

    Totally incorrect, I care about everything anyone posts and criticism is a good thing that helps us learn. I just get tired of folks asking for unnecessary info. So, rather than posting a stock image of any nickel I can pull off the computer :troll: to satisfy the request an look like a good guy :angelic:, I just don't do it. Additionally, my camera setup is not for pretty images (this one is so horrible I thought about not posting it at all because I couldn't make the shelf visible. Nevertheless, it made for some intelligent guesses) it is for micro diagnostics and characteristics seen on coins.


     
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Okay, I know that "known as" doesn't mean "known to Google as" -- but there has to be a happy medium somewhere between "comes right up on Google" and "exists only in my head". ;)

    Of course, probably by tomorrow or so your post will be indexed by Google, so I guess we'll be done then!
     
  11. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    @Insider

    I would love to take credit for figuring it out, but to be honest, I really wasn't sure of the cause so did not hazard a guess. I believe @Marshall proposed the sunken die. My post was only to help clarify an earlier question.

    I'm not 100% convinced it's die subsidence, but that sure fits the pics/description better than anything else. I Don't think you mentioned the date, but it would be interesting to see if there were other potential issues from that time that would indicate that the mint was having variability during the annealing/hardening process, such as cuds, heavy cracks, or shattered dies. Just a thought to see if there is some extra info that may help strengthen the subsidence theory.
     
  12. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Having become familiar with your knowledge via your posts over the years, i would have bet even money you would opine possible tooling.

    Also, and only because it was on my mind today, I miss IGWT. Very much.
     
  13. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    It's a War nickel (date?) Sorry, NOT tooling. Coin is 100% original as made.
     
  14. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    IMO, that makes some sense. WWII, fewer skilled operators, trying to make critical materials last without waste. Not proof, but another puzzle piece to add to the mix.

    I would bet on die subsidence at this point.
     
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  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Die sinking or subsidence on Early cents is neither common or uncommon. It is often associated with the wearing of the die and often is reason for the dies early retirement leaving the variety on the rarer side. The high surface often wears quickly leaving the impression of a lower grade specimen.

    One which comes to mind is the 1793 NC-6 where the die sinks behind the hair in the left field leaving a high surface.

    I'm particularly familiar with this variety because of my discovery of the third known specimen. Strangely enough has the oldest provenance and was misattributed as an S-16 by several well known copper specialists.

    A close examination of all three known show all had this sinking to some extent.

    I started watching Forged in Fire and gained an appreciation for the difficulties at the early mint to make dies which are hardened enough to hold up to repeated coining without becoming brittle during the quench. So my theory is that sinking/subsidence results from a softer die and breaks come from a harder (more brittle) die.

    Since the war nickel was a softer material than nickel and die steal was a war material, it would make sense that they might attempt to use a softer die hoping for a longer life for each die.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  16. Stevearino

    Stevearino Well-Known Member

    @Marshall, I noticed in your avatar you're a "Junior Member." Also, you've been on CT for about 12 years. After reading post # 54, and by the powers invested in me by myself, I hereby make you a Senior Member.

    Steve

    PS I also marked it Best Answer and I'm hoping @Insider doesn't shoot down my choice when he reveals what he saw with the coin in hand.
     
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  17. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Personally, I would rather use "collapsing die" instead of "die subsidence" as I think it is more descriptive and less opaque. Or to be brutal, "sinkhole die." But that's just me.
     
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  18. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    deleted, double post.
     
  19. 1776

    1776 Member

    Curious as what caused the mark. Thread seemed to have died
     
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  20. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    now it looks like a die crack
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Answered: The die subsided in the middle w/o leaving a raised crack. Instead it left a bi-level surface. First of these I ever saw in hand.
     
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