A real puzzle? Is this a struck thru thread or a scratch?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Insider, Sep 27, 2021.

  1. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    There is a light strike through above the very noticeable SCRATCHES, dude the rude! Be nice...
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    GDJMSP, posted: "Lemme see if I can help out a bit here.

    Here's the way the scenario plays out. He's at work at ICG, a coin comes in. He examines the coin, and if he sees something that warrants it he then looks at it with a hi-mag scope. And if he sees something interesting, he takes a picture of it through the scope, and he saves the picture. There are NO pictures of the whole coin ever taken ! He completes his work and the coin is sent back to the owner.

    Days, weeks, months, maybe years later, he goes through his files, finds a given picture and decides to post it here and ask the questions he asks in the thread."

    :facepalm: It's like you are the "Invisible Man" sitting next to my desk!

    As to the following:

    johnmilton, posted: "Sometimes a view of the entire coin gives you more clues of what have been done to it. One either fights with you or ignores you. Either way, you will never change so ignoring you is better when one has had enough.

    I respect you knowledge, but not your demeanor on these boards. Given my age, I have probably had more years of experience, but you have probably seen more coins since it has been your profession for many years. Your put-downs don’t enhance you ability to teach. A little humility would go a long way."

    Steven Shaw, posted: "Yup, this guy is grating on my nerves with his know-it-all attitude. He should chill."

    IMO, ANYONE who calls ANYONE a know-it-all must have a tiny ...

    I post here at my pleasure (and that of CT as long as I don't break the rules) because I like to share what I've learned as well as learn from others. You can either ignore my posts or shut up because I'm REALLY not interested in your whining opinions of me or how I post. It makes me :vomit:. I was educated by wolves who physically whipped us into shape. When I go into the woods with the wolves of numismatics I don't care how they make me "
    FEEL" :bigtears::bigtears::bigtears: or how they say things to me while I soak it all up. If you don't know your stuff, you'll get taken.


    This is the kind of crap I don't put up with:


    Jaelus, posted: "I said I would change my answer if you're saying it is not gold. If you're saying it is gold my answer is of course the same"

    After saying he would change his answer (which was correct) when challenged to back it up and explain the change he would make he did not because IMO, this entire comment was SMOKE!

     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    wxcoin, posted: "Since my knowledge is limited compared to others commenting and posting in this thread my comments probably only scratch the surface. [:hilarious::hilarious::hilarious::hilarious: Good one!] Anyhow, I see two types of features in the coin. I see light scratches [yes] as evident in the duller lines. The brighter brillo looking area is brighter and appears raised. [You will NEVER, NEVER, EVER see Mint die polish that looks as this does. It is NEVER EVER jagged. I'll take some images and do a poll soon - "Die Polish or Scratches" ]So I don't think that those are scratches.[They are]

    What looks like a light strike is a little rub through the toning.
     
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  5. whopper64

    whopper64 Well-Known Member

    I agree with others as scratches, looks to "new" to be otherwise. IMHO
     
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  6. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Jaelus, posted: "I said I would change my answer if you're saying it is not gold. If you're saying it is gold my answer is of course the same."

    @Jaelus

    :oops: You have my partial apology [1/2 :eggface:]. I :bucktooth::blackeye: misunderstood your post. However, my question to you remains basically the same. How would your answer (correct - scratches) have changed DEPENDING ON THE COMPOSITION OF THE COIN - in this case silver???

    "I believe I had the correct answer and explanation that it was a spot removal with a small tool. Depending on the coin though, for an issue that small on an early US coin, I wouldn't be surprised to see it given a pass and net graded. I've seen similar spot removal attempts on bust coinage in straight NGC and PCGS holders."

    IMHO, Net Grading is one of the worst things ever conceived to sell less than nice coins. Shame on the big two. They are looking out for the seller and not the buyer.
     
  7. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    I rotated the image to presumably the proper orientation. There is strong low-angle lighting from the north. There is a dark shadow under all of the markings to the south. I cannot perceive them as anything but raised off the surface. They look "fresh" because they're lit up like a spotlight.

    The corrosion crosses the markings in numerous places, many circled. There is an old scratch right through them - arrows. Your contention that the tool skipped over the corrosion they were theoretically trying to eliminate I find untenable.

    These markings are raised, and are die scratches. Your opinion and mine will never be the same, but it's a fun diversion. All we have is one image existing in a vacuum. We can't look at it from another angle, or examine the rest of the coin for similar markings. I'm not about to go search every seated liberty denomination, date, and mint looking for another example, but I bet there is one. Have a great day.
    Die_Scratches_annotated.jpg
     
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  8. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Well just that I would think corrosion first rather than encrustation. It wouldn't change that it was a clumsy spot removal with a sharp tool.
     
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  9. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    KBBPLL, posted: "I rotated the image to presumably the proper orientation. [THANKS, and magnified it to boot! :). That should now make it perfectly clear to all why these are scratches!] There is strong low-angle lighting from the north. There is a dark shadow under all of the markings to the south. I cannot perceive them as anything but raised off the surface. They look "fresh" because they're lit up like a spotlight. [I'm going to let others have time to respond first as to why your opinion is not correct].

    The corrosion crosses the markings in numerous places, many circled. There is an old scratch right through them - arrows. Your contention that the tool skipped over the corrosion they were theoretically trying to eliminate I find untenable. [OK, I'll give you that as it does not matter. Dirt appears to be a better conclusion. Dirt or corrosion, it is still a ham-fisted attempt to remove it = spot removal..

    These markings are raised, and are die scratches. [100% NO] Your opinion and mine will never be the same [bets??? ;)], but it's a fun diversion. [Actually, a mistake as this = lost :banghead::banghead::bigtears::greedy: money and not fun :( or a diversion o_O] All we have is one image existing in a vacuum. We can't look at it from another angle, or examine the rest of the coin for similar markings. I'm not about to go search every seated liberty denomination, date, and mint looking for another example, but I bet there is one. Have a great day.

    My day (already partly ruined by my comment to @Jaelus) will be completely ruined if all of us cannot change your opinion!

    Now, look inside the scratches. Note the stop & go notches. In addition, Die polish NEVER is jagged both on top of it and over-all. Die polish is NEVER BRIGHT against a toned background. Unfortunately there is no die polish in the image. THERE IS A DIE BREAK (RAISED). That's the color Die polish would be. TONED as the surrounding surface. :oops: I forgot I was going to let others point these things out. Did I get you to change your mind?
     
  10. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Well, since their customers already own the coins they submit, their customers are always potentially sellers, but never buyers. They are looking out for their bottom line. They should be doing that out of obligation to their shareholders.
     
  11. Jim Dale

    Jim Dale Well-Known Member

    Somebody, or someone, has raised someone's hair at the base of the neck. Or you might say that "Someone has ruffled their feathers or fur." I sounds like a "cat fight."
    Anyway, when I first saw the coin, I though a mosquito had landed on it, and while the mosquito was resting, a picture was taken.
    If not, it's not really worth arguing the point, at least to me.
    Thanks for the "hair raising thread."
     
  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Jaelus, posted: "Well, since their customers already own the coins they submit, their customers are always potentially sellers, but never buyers. They are looking out for their bottom line. They should be doing that out of obligation to their shareholders."

    Yes, and I'll be more plain. Decades ago when "we" were the only game in town we had a joke that went this way...

    Let's call every coin genuine. That way everyone will be happy and it will be good for our bottom line. The seller will be happy; the buyer will be happy; and the counterfeiter will be happy. Later, at the first TPGS (INSAB) the joke evolved into ...

    Let's call everything Uncirculated. Everyone will be happy. It turns out, by the late 1990s that was actually going on very frequently. Standards be dammed, it was good for the bottom line. :(

    @Jim Dale

    Very Sad :( Aside from that, what do you think? Scratches or Die polish?
     
  13. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    One of the big flaws in the third party grading market is that the companies have not maintained pictures of the coins that they have graded. From my observations, NGC has done a better job with pictures than PCGS.

    Why?

    When you go to check the serial number, as the TPGs and some dealers suggest you do, there is often no picture of the coin. If there is no picture, how do you know if the coin you are viewing is the same one the company graded? This is an important element in counterfeit detection.

    Don’t think that this lake of photographic evidence is limited to cheap coins. I have looked up pieces that are worth thousands of dollars that have no photos attached to them.

    This is a problem, and it’s one the grading companies should address.
     
  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    One reason I've heard for not posting images is gradflation. Folks see the same coin graded 65 and later it is in a 66 slab at the same service.
     
  15. RonSanderson

    RonSanderson Supporter! Supporter

    I am late to the thread, so I will jump into the middle!

    On the rotated picture I can pick up some shading. Some of the lines are bright on one side and darker on the other.
    FC32A6B9-0DF9-4C45-823A-FA9BB9CEF47D.jpeg

    For this reason I conclude these lines are all raised above the surface of the coin. If there were no shadow, I would have thought the light was hitting the inside of an incuse scratch. But the shadow forces me to call them raised.

    Now, if they are raised, that means they came from incuse scratches on the die. I feel good about the theory of a sharp tool being used to remove something. But with this evidence I think it was a mint employee trying to remove something from the die. While intending to go up and down next to the design depressed into the die, the tool strayed out into the fields and created those irregular scratches.

    Comments welcome, but I am much less knowledgeable than @Insider, so any name calling should be a lot more severe than you deal out to him!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  16. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Insider has the advantage of using a binocular microscope to examine coins, giving a 3d view, and we can only look at these 2d images, making it very difficult to determine if marks are incuse or raised. I'm going to assume these are incuse based on how the first post was worded. In any case, I think it is more likely a struck through as the marks are tapered (as a fiber would be) and in the center of the group the marks are parallel as would be fibers that had been twisted together and then somewhat unravelled. Scratches just don't look that uniformly parallel in my experience. Also scratches should displace metal on the sides and ends of the marks, and despite my squinting hard I'm just not seeing that.
    for what it's worth. cheers!
     
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  17. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    If those brighter areas are not scratches, are you implying that they have been on the coin since it was struck? If so, how do you account for the darker scratches that appear to have occurred after the coin was struck?
     
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  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Ouch! This is extremely :banghead::banghead: discouraging. :D

    My thread has been posted and answered. I have a lot of work to do here but I refuse to post an image and tell you what it is. You learn by figuring it out for yourself from what you see.

    Now you see why "they say" grading or authenticating a coin CAN BE difficult to impossible using photos alone. Lucky for you guys, I had the coin in hand and wished to show you what a scratch removal could look like.

    I'll be looking for my next image to post. :happy:
     
  19. potty dollar 1878

    potty dollar 1878 Well-Known Member

    I'm glad I stayed quiet:muted::muted:This thread sure made my past few days.
     
  20. Cliff Reuter

    Cliff Reuter Well-Known Member

    Scratches on the coin.
    The metal is too "fresh" and shiny to be struck through. If the incuse marks happened at the time of the strike, the metal would have oxidized the same as the rest of the coin.

    EDIT: I wanted to post what I was seeing before reading the answer so there was a little "discussion" going on between the first and last page.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  21. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect since I was a baby

    I agree with what you and @Insider said.
     
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