A question for dear colleagues

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by paschka, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    do you believe that this coin has been in a private collection for 2500 years?

    MACEDON
    NEAPOLIS

    Silver Drachm. Circa 360 BC
    16 mm. 3,85 g.
    Obv: Facing gorgoneion with protruding tongue.

    Rev: N-E-O-Π; Head of Nymph right, hair rolled on forehead; small bird to right in right field.

    SNG ANS 428 (same dies); De Luynes 1521 (same reverse die).

    Extremely fine with a beautiful collection toning.

    Very rare variant



    s-l503.jpg s-l502.jpg
     
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  3. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Maybe 25 years.
     
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  4. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Why do you think so?))
     
  5. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    I believe I read on here a while back that there are no known private collections that go back further than the 1400s. Though, to answer your question, even if I hadn't read that, no I wouldn't believe it.
     
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  6. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    2380 at the most
     
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  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Because there were no collectors that long ago.

    So what is the provenance of your coin? How far back did you actually trace it? Are those pimples on the ANS coin?
     
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  8. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    Anyone claiming that a coin has been in a private collection or collections continuously since ancient times (let alone 2,000+ years) is basically attempting to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. Or the Acropolis. There isn't one single ancient coin known to have been above ground continuously since ancient Greek or Roman times (not even at the Vatican); they were all dug up at some point. Don't forget that despite various claims to the contrary, there are exactly zero families that can legitimately trace their ancestry back to ancient Rome or Greece with documentary proof -- let alone any family heirlooms or other possessions of any such families. The furthest back anyone of European descent can prove their ancestry continuously (without any fabrications or conveniently glossed-over missing links in the chain) is to three or four generations beyond Charlemagne. See https://www.geni.com/projects/Ancestors-of-Charlemagne/4914, explaining:

     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
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  9. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    It's amazing, that if you do the math, you're probably related to everyone 2000 years ago!
     
  10. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    That theory doesn't account for populations (such as certain indigenous peoples in South America, Indonesia, etc.) that have been isolated and/or endogamous for at least that long and have no European admixture whatsoever. The most recent common ancestor of all people today lived a very, very long time ago.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2020
  11. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  12. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    It is being sold as 100% authentic at a very reputable auction.
     
  13. Mike Margolis

    Mike Margolis Well-Known Member

    maybe @panzerman knows of this "Ley" collection which also had many high end gold coins? [​IMG]
     
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  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    So I guess they are the ones who knew it was in a two thousand year old collection?
     
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  15. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

    Seems impossible for the reasons enumerated above. My traceable genealogy only goes back to the 1600's, though my surname (when Latinized) is the name of a barbarian tribe that provided troops to the Empire in the late 4th century as mentioned in the Notitia Dignitatum and also by the historian Ammianus Marcellinus, however there is a 1300 year gap. The name of the tribe also was mentioned in the writings of St. Jerome dating back to the 5th century.
     
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  16. DonnaML

    DonnaML Supporter! Supporter

    I don't see anyplace at this link where it's claimed that the coin has been in a collection continuously for 2,000+ years. Or are you suggesting that the only possible way the coin could look like this -- namely, as if it were struck last week! -- would be if it had actually been preserved in a collection continuously since its manufacture? In other words, given the impossibility of such a history, are you really implying that the coin, despite its impressive provenance, is a fake? (I admit that even though this coin is not from Apollonia Pontika, I've recently looked at so many real and fake gorgons from that town that there's something about the gorgon on this coin that looks suspicious to me. Perhaps that it's too perfect?)
     
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  17. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Yes, either this coin has been kept in a hermetically sealed safe for 2500 years. It was later found by chance in the ground inside this safe and there were many such coins and it was a hidden treasure that was secretly found in the 17th or 19th century. Either it is a fake, and, possibly, the old type of the Renaissance period of the 15th or 16th or 17th centuries. Or it’s a fake of our time. This coin for antiquity is too perfect in its appearance.
    My suspicion is that during antiquity there was no technology to create such perfect coins. And in this you are right.
     
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  18. Romancollector

    Romancollector Well-Known Member

    Have you seen a Syracusan dekadrachm? Perfection (or at least perceived perfection) is no reason to doubt the authenticity of an ancient coin. There were many talented celators that produced coins of remarkable artistry.
     
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  19. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Jul 30, 2020
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  20. paschka

    paschka Well-Known Member

    Maybe, but it turns out that this coin was not in circulation. It was minted and immediately hidden in a hermetic safe for 2500 years. Found only now.
     
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  21. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    My main concern about this coin would be who actually sells it....

    Q
     
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