A new way to deter counterfeits?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by gxseries, Jun 8, 2015.

  1. gxseries

    gxseries Coin Collector

    I've read this interesting article from Japan and I can't imagine why this cannot be used to fight against counterfeits.

    In particular, the highlight of this new technology is this:

    " Although mass-produced products look smooth and identical to the naked eye, they are different under the microscope because even items cast from the same molds bear unique surface patterns. "

    Unlike the previous way of identifying slabbed coins by barcode number which can be easily duplicated and then counterfeit coins can be placed duplicated barcode numbered slabs - this completely eliminates a lot of problems.

    The article can be seen here: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...evelops-way-id-everyday-objects/#.VXYvJFIZaFn

    What do you think?
     
    Numismat likes this.
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  3. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    There is potential for sure.
     
  4. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    I thought you were going to show something like

    [​IMG]
     
    miedbe7 likes this.
  5. derkerlegand

    derkerlegand Well-Known Member

    Have there been any successful counterfeits of the Canadian Maple Leaf with the fine radiating lines and the micro date in the micro leaf?
     
  6. OldGoldGuy

    OldGoldGuy Members Only Jacket

    Would they be successful if we can tell they are counterfeit? Or did you mean; has anyone tried counterfeiting the new design and been identified?

    I would be willing to bet that counterfeiters will probably not be pumping out ones with "2015" on them. Better to stick to a past year that wasn't as tricky to duplicate.
     
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  7. coloradobryan

    coloradobryan Well-Known Member

    Just march the counterfeiters through a large coin show and pelt them with Susan B Anthony dollars till they beg for mercy...
     
    OldGoldGuy and Jwt708 like this.
  8. bdunnse

    bdunnse Who dat?

    How to defer? Don't buy them!
     
  9. derkerlegand

    derkerlegand Well-Known Member

    Yep, I mean some that were made and passed until further scrutiny. The earlier ones would probably most likely be counterfeited. Heck I applaud the attempt to thwart the bad guys anyway. There are some pretty clever guys selling on Alibaba, though!
     
  10. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    I don't understand. I mean, the software identifies "something" from a data base of previously scanned items. Right?

    If so, its not "detecting" a counterfeit as much as its "determining" whether or not the item has previously been scanned. Right?

    To enable such a system would require the TPG's to incorporate the software into their grading programs which, no doubt, would increase grading fee's.
     
  11. gxseries

    gxseries Coin Collector

    My question is this - how sustainable is for graders to continue offering 100% full refund service for counterfeit coins that are guaranteed as genuine? Granted, this would be a lack of knowledge which would be the reason why they were authenticated as such.

    Previously a lot of the 'excellent' counterfeits were caught by pure luck or due diligence such as a huge batch of them appeared for authenticity and they had similar condition or similar tell signs. The Micro O dollar comes to mind. Counterfeiters aren't fools either - they have learned their lesson and not to send a huge batch of them at the same time.

    Both NGC and PCGS already offer excellent photography service at an optional service. While it is not cheap, let's say we are talking about coins that's at least $1000 and up. I believe that this is already a wealth of information which can be used.

    There are two major problems with counterfeits - the biggest one being raw counterfeits and counterfeit slabs. For a general consumer to not able to determine a counterfeit slab essentially kills the purpose of why one would want to have a coin graded in the first place. This would ruin graders' credibility. What this solution does is to eliminate counterfeit slabs as the coins have already been verified. Unless counterfeiters start to employ hackers to upload their images into the database, this seem to be pretty hard to break if it claims to work as such.

    Agreed - this will cost more but I believe over time, prices will fall to a reasonable level. Again, I don't think this is the solution to everything. Counterfeits are being churned out by the second. There are already millions lost due to counterfeits. Why can't this millions be used to create new technology to thwart counterfeits. There is a strong need for solutions and I believe sitting back and doing nothing about it is probably the worst option.
     
  12. Numismat

    Numismat World coin enthusiast

    Obvious problem with this - from the article, even items made from the same mold can have a unique "fingerprint". So if you can't match two coins cast from the same mold or struck from the same die, how will this actually work?
     
  13. john59

    john59 Well-Known Member

    Are you will to pay double or triple or more to get you coin graded we complain over the cost now
     
  14. john59

    john59 Well-Known Member

    The way it looks you will have a database of the coin you scan or photograph only. How will this actually work it won't if the coin is not scan or photograph
    one by one
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2015
  15. Stephan77

    Stephan77 Well-Known Member

    Something such as this or something else will be done in the future, perhaps the near future. If the current TPGs can't or won't do it, then another TPG company will spring up that will.
     
  16. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    So basically this "new way it deter counterfeits" is look at the coins really closely and compare them to previously made images. This is new? OK apparently what is "new" is having a computer doing the comparison, kind of like checking its "digital fingerprint". Or in other words the same thing PCGS did back in 1991 and then currently with their secure plus digital fingerprinting.
     
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