Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
A magnificent boner coin with an amazing journey!
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="Only a Poor Old Man, post: 7698680, member: 111037"]Now that the thread title got your attention, let me introduce you to my latest auction win. It is actually my second ever auction win... I have stated before that I prefer the straightforward process of buying retail, considering that auction prices were so high this year. That doesn't mean I don't try, and my last few bidding attempts were quite painful as they didn't even come close to hammer price. My very first auction win a few months back was somewhat accidental as the coin wasn't even a target of mine and I was just trying out to see how bidding works. No complains though as I ended up with a nice aspron trachy that I got for significantly less than the estimate. This time the occasion was rather similar. The coin was not a primary target, but I had decided to keep an eye out for it as it was a type that always interested me. To my surprise it had no bids just a day before the auction closed, and with a few minutes to go, it was only a few pounds over the starting price. I decided to bid, not really hoping to win it (and expecting a barrage of competing last second bids), but to my surprise those last second bids never came and I won the coin for just 75% of the estimate! Well, here it is, in all its glory:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1321324[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p>As you can see, it is an infamous 'ithyphallic' (not a safe internet search, I will explain the term later) archaic drachm from Thasos. These are not rare, at least not the stater versions. The drachms according to the lot description are scarce, but I have the feeling that this may be the reason it didn't get the attention it deserved as collectors probably prefer the larger staters. I initially thought it was a stater when I first saw it, but thankfully I read the description in time before I bid, otherwise my max bid would have been higher. There is another reason that potentially made some people to shy away form it, and this is that it is a type that gets faked a lot. I was aware of that so I researched it using the usual resources, and it seemed legit. Furthermore, it came with an impressive provenance, but more about that later...</p><p><br /></p><p>There is another unique element to this coin and it is its potentially controversial theme. Not long time ago there was a thread here in CoinTalk about an auction description of a coin of this type that included comedic elements which didn't sit well for some. I have to admit that I was surprised back then as I didn't think it would create such a heated debate. But in retrospective, I am kinda glad I saw that thread as otherwise I may have included too many boner jokes in this write up. My personal take is that if we start dictating which subjects are allowed or not to get a comedic/satirical treatment, it could quickly get out of hand. Life can be very cruel and dark, and comedy can be cathartic as long as it is not too crude or willingly offensive. </p><p><br /></p><p>But I am not too sure if the theme of the coin was ever intended to glorify sexual violence. I did some research in regards to attitudes to rape in ancient Greece that seem to indicate otherwise. Firstly, rape was downright illegal (at least in Athens). The penalties ranged from a fine all the way to death penalty depending on the circumstances. Sexual violence towards children, married women, or temple virgins were deemed the most serious. The sentences were less harsh for incidents occurring during festivals under the influence of alcohol. Raping of adult males were also considered serious especially if the purpose was to humiliate the victim in question. The Greek word for rape "βιασμος" contains the word "βια" which means violence. It was clear under Greek understanding that rape was not a pleasant or acceptable act. This type of behaviour was considered animalistic and it was regarded as a habit of barbarians. In a chapter of Xenophon's "The Expedition of Cyrus" (Anabasis) the Greek army encounters an Anatolian tribe that fornicates in public plain view, which caused much disgust to the Greeks. </p><p><br /></p><p>So one may wonder, why these coins exist then as well the erotic and sometimes bizarre depictions one often finds on ancient Greek vases? A probable answer is entertainment, comedy, titillation, and all of those combined. They did not have pornography or movies back then, so these depictions may were intended as just innocent titillating fun. It is unlikely to be a coincidence that ancient erotica is most commonly found on drinking vessels. It was all part of the fun and carefree attitude one would expect on such occasions. It doesn't then reflect ancient Greek society as a whole, in the same way Hollywood doesn't reflect the real modern world. Imagine if the archaeologists of the future will have no sources to judge America apart from action or erotic movies. Another thing to note is that this was once a Thracian island. Around 650 BC Greeks from Paros founded a colony on Thasos and defeated the local Thracian tribes. It is to be expected that some elements of the old culture remained. The norther one went the more 'carefree' and 'rustic' the local populations were regarded. So maybe this coin really came with the territory. </p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1321325[/ATTACH] </p><p><i>Silenos performing a balancing act, because he can! - From a Greek vase (Wikimedia Commons)</i></p><p><br /></p><p>So my personal belief is that the nymph and satyr depicted on the coin is just a story, a myth, local folklore, not meant to be taken seriously. The Greeks had deities for all sorts of things, and satyr/nymphs were part of the unadulterated wine cult of Dionysus of all things ecstatic. After all the term nymphomaniac comes from these nymphs with the understanding that they were nothing more than fictional sexualised mythological maidens. They are not real so we should not lose too much sleep on if the the nymph on my coin consented to her imminent coitus with the ithyphallic satyr. And here comes this word again... Surprisingly, some objected to the term in that other thread I mentioned earlier as being too Victorian. It is borrowed from an ancient Greek word that describes a depiction of an erect penis, and personally I find it much more civilised as a term than the crude word 'boner'. I wish youths would adopt using it instead, which is not impossible as it would come back in fashion if it somehow becomes viral. To close on the subject of ancient Greek penises and the meaning behind their depictions, the following extract from a Craig Barker article I found in the 'Greek Reporter' is rather enlightening:</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><i>Source: <a href="https://greekreporter.com/2021/05/31/erotic-art-ancient-greece-rome/" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://greekreporter.com/2021/05/31/erotic-art-ancient-greece-rome/" rel="nofollow">https://greekreporter.com/2021/05/31/erotic-art-ancient-greece-rome/</a></i></p><p><br /></p><p>Going back to my coin, it is what it is, a fabulous sample and a marvellous example of archaic art. The level of detail is exquisite for such a small flan. It looks magnificent in hand. Yes, I would probably prefer a big stater, but I have no regrets. The ithyphallic element is not quite that visible, and I am pretty sure the satyr would blame it on the size of the coin. The style reminds me of the lovely archaic statues I saw in the Athens Acropolis new museum. And as a bonus, it is now the older coin in my collection, pushing my Athenian tet to second place.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1321327[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p>And now we come to the provenance of the coin which is equally fascinating. The earliest record of this coin (that I know of) is from the CNG Numismatica Ars Classica Triton I from 1997. Decently old, from a more than decent auction. It was also advertised as being part of the 'Vineyard Collection'. Quite recently there was a discussion in a coin group on Facebook about if there is any point to the colourful yet anonymous provenances in auctions of the type '<i>from an old English collection</i>' '<i>from the collection of a dentist</i>' and such.. In this case it is a fitting description as the common theme of that rather large collection was wine. And it is a description that has stuck among auction houses and publications to describe coins from that important source. The original collector may still be alive, so maybe that is why there is no formal name attached to it. I believe some members of this forum have coins from that collection. The biggest surprise though, was yet to come. While I was researching this provenance, I realised that this coin has gone under the hammer 3 times in the last year. First in October 2020 along with other Vineyard coins where it hammered for 500 CHF, and then again this February where it hammered for a whooping £1700. I could hardly believe my eyes... I am not sure what quite happened there, perhaps some of you can explain. Was the coin treated as an investment opportunity rather than a collectible ancient? Did the last owner got buyer' remorse after spending that much on it and put it up for auction again hoping to recover the funds? Either way it did not work out as they hoped as I got it for just £400... I can't help but feel a bit sympathetic to their bad luck... I can only say that the coin found a loving home and I do not plan on re-selling it any time soon...</p><p><br /></p><p>Here is a pic of the coin's entry in the Triton I catalogue. While browsing it I noticed our very own [USER=79368]@Barry Murphy[/USER] cited as an auction numismatist. Presumably he may have handled the coin, but I would suspect he is unlikely to remember the occasion. The other thing I noticed while browsing the catalogue was the 10% buyer's fee... Those were the days!</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1321328[/ATTACH] </p><p><br /></p><p>Show me your archaic coins, or any other coins from the vineyard collection.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Only a Poor Old Man, post: 7698680, member: 111037"]Now that the thread title got your attention, let me introduce you to my latest auction win. It is actually my second ever auction win... I have stated before that I prefer the straightforward process of buying retail, considering that auction prices were so high this year. That doesn't mean I don't try, and my last few bidding attempts were quite painful as they didn't even come close to hammer price. My very first auction win a few months back was somewhat accidental as the coin wasn't even a target of mine and I was just trying out to see how bidding works. No complains though as I ended up with a nice aspron trachy that I got for significantly less than the estimate. This time the occasion was rather similar. The coin was not a primary target, but I had decided to keep an eye out for it as it was a type that always interested me. To my surprise it had no bids just a day before the auction closed, and with a few minutes to go, it was only a few pounds over the starting price. I decided to bid, not really hoping to win it (and expecting a barrage of competing last second bids), but to my surprise those last second bids never came and I won the coin for just 75% of the estimate! Well, here it is, in all its glory: [ATTACH=full]1321324[/ATTACH] As you can see, it is an infamous 'ithyphallic' (not a safe internet search, I will explain the term later) archaic drachm from Thasos. These are not rare, at least not the stater versions. The drachms according to the lot description are scarce, but I have the feeling that this may be the reason it didn't get the attention it deserved as collectors probably prefer the larger staters. I initially thought it was a stater when I first saw it, but thankfully I read the description in time before I bid, otherwise my max bid would have been higher. There is another reason that potentially made some people to shy away form it, and this is that it is a type that gets faked a lot. I was aware of that so I researched it using the usual resources, and it seemed legit. Furthermore, it came with an impressive provenance, but more about that later... There is another unique element to this coin and it is its potentially controversial theme. Not long time ago there was a thread here in CoinTalk about an auction description of a coin of this type that included comedic elements which didn't sit well for some. I have to admit that I was surprised back then as I didn't think it would create such a heated debate. But in retrospective, I am kinda glad I saw that thread as otherwise I may have included too many boner jokes in this write up. My personal take is that if we start dictating which subjects are allowed or not to get a comedic/satirical treatment, it could quickly get out of hand. Life can be very cruel and dark, and comedy can be cathartic as long as it is not too crude or willingly offensive. But I am not too sure if the theme of the coin was ever intended to glorify sexual violence. I did some research in regards to attitudes to rape in ancient Greece that seem to indicate otherwise. Firstly, rape was downright illegal (at least in Athens). The penalties ranged from a fine all the way to death penalty depending on the circumstances. Sexual violence towards children, married women, or temple virgins were deemed the most serious. The sentences were less harsh for incidents occurring during festivals under the influence of alcohol. Raping of adult males were also considered serious especially if the purpose was to humiliate the victim in question. The Greek word for rape "βιασμος" contains the word "βια" which means violence. It was clear under Greek understanding that rape was not a pleasant or acceptable act. This type of behaviour was considered animalistic and it was regarded as a habit of barbarians. In a chapter of Xenophon's "The Expedition of Cyrus" (Anabasis) the Greek army encounters an Anatolian tribe that fornicates in public plain view, which caused much disgust to the Greeks. So one may wonder, why these coins exist then as well the erotic and sometimes bizarre depictions one often finds on ancient Greek vases? A probable answer is entertainment, comedy, titillation, and all of those combined. They did not have pornography or movies back then, so these depictions may were intended as just innocent titillating fun. It is unlikely to be a coincidence that ancient erotica is most commonly found on drinking vessels. It was all part of the fun and carefree attitude one would expect on such occasions. It doesn't then reflect ancient Greek society as a whole, in the same way Hollywood doesn't reflect the real modern world. Imagine if the archaeologists of the future will have no sources to judge America apart from action or erotic movies. Another thing to note is that this was once a Thracian island. Around 650 BC Greeks from Paros founded a colony on Thasos and defeated the local Thracian tribes. It is to be expected that some elements of the old culture remained. The norther one went the more 'carefree' and 'rustic' the local populations were regarded. So maybe this coin really came with the territory. [ATTACH=full]1321325[/ATTACH] [I]Silenos performing a balancing act, because he can! - From a Greek vase (Wikimedia Commons)[/I] So my personal belief is that the nymph and satyr depicted on the coin is just a story, a myth, local folklore, not meant to be taken seriously. The Greeks had deities for all sorts of things, and satyr/nymphs were part of the unadulterated wine cult of Dionysus of all things ecstatic. After all the term nymphomaniac comes from these nymphs with the understanding that they were nothing more than fictional sexualised mythological maidens. They are not real so we should not lose too much sleep on if the the nymph on my coin consented to her imminent coitus with the ithyphallic satyr. And here comes this word again... Surprisingly, some objected to the term in that other thread I mentioned earlier as being too Victorian. It is borrowed from an ancient Greek word that describes a depiction of an erect penis, and personally I find it much more civilised as a term than the crude word 'boner'. I wish youths would adopt using it instead, which is not impossible as it would come back in fashion if it somehow becomes viral. To close on the subject of ancient Greek penises and the meaning behind their depictions, the following extract from a Craig Barker article I found in the 'Greek Reporter' is rather enlightening: [I]Source: [URL]https://greekreporter.com/2021/05/31/erotic-art-ancient-greece-rome/[/URL][/I] Going back to my coin, it is what it is, a fabulous sample and a marvellous example of archaic art. The level of detail is exquisite for such a small flan. It looks magnificent in hand. Yes, I would probably prefer a big stater, but I have no regrets. The ithyphallic element is not quite that visible, and I am pretty sure the satyr would blame it on the size of the coin. The style reminds me of the lovely archaic statues I saw in the Athens Acropolis new museum. And as a bonus, it is now the older coin in my collection, pushing my Athenian tet to second place. [ATTACH=full]1321327[/ATTACH] And now we come to the provenance of the coin which is equally fascinating. The earliest record of this coin (that I know of) is from the CNG Numismatica Ars Classica Triton I from 1997. Decently old, from a more than decent auction. It was also advertised as being part of the 'Vineyard Collection'. Quite recently there was a discussion in a coin group on Facebook about if there is any point to the colourful yet anonymous provenances in auctions of the type '[I]from an old English collection[/I]' '[I]from the collection of a dentist[/I]' and such.. In this case it is a fitting description as the common theme of that rather large collection was wine. And it is a description that has stuck among auction houses and publications to describe coins from that important source. The original collector may still be alive, so maybe that is why there is no formal name attached to it. I believe some members of this forum have coins from that collection. The biggest surprise though, was yet to come. While I was researching this provenance, I realised that this coin has gone under the hammer 3 times in the last year. First in October 2020 along with other Vineyard coins where it hammered for 500 CHF, and then again this February where it hammered for a whooping £1700. I could hardly believe my eyes... I am not sure what quite happened there, perhaps some of you can explain. Was the coin treated as an investment opportunity rather than a collectible ancient? Did the last owner got buyer' remorse after spending that much on it and put it up for auction again hoping to recover the funds? Either way it did not work out as they hoped as I got it for just £400... I can't help but feel a bit sympathetic to their bad luck... I can only say that the coin found a loving home and I do not plan on re-selling it any time soon... Here is a pic of the coin's entry in the Triton I catalogue. While browsing it I noticed our very own [USER=79368]@Barry Murphy[/USER] cited as an auction numismatist. Presumably he may have handled the coin, but I would suspect he is unlikely to remember the occasion. The other thing I noticed while browsing the catalogue was the 10% buyer's fee... Those were the days! [ATTACH=full]1321328[/ATTACH] Show me your archaic coins, or any other coins from the vineyard collection.[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
A magnificent boner coin with an amazing journey!
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...
