Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, Mar 20, 2019.

  1. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    A surreal situation happened lately on another ancient coin forum of discussion. A very experienced collector is asking assistance to confirm the mint of a Gordian III antoninianus. So many experts ( I mean real experts ) are giving their opinion and explanations about the coin. But suddenly, out of nowhere, a member posted this comment : your coin seems to be a modern fake, from eastern Europe...
    The sceptical reply : why do you say that ? Do you have proofs ?
    The answer :the style of your is ugly (!), and the reverse is from the same die of this modern fake...( link to a Fake coin Report ).
    The reply of the poor stunned guy : I have this coin in my collection for 8 years!

    This is what I call a lesson of humility. For me and for all collectors. Is it possible that a forgery has find his way in my collection ? It happened to me years ago. I bought an ‘uncleaned’ lot of roman coins. Had a lot of fun working slowly on them. Finally one of my best achievement was a Constantius II , which I proudly add to my modest series of Emperors. Two years later, I discovered that it was in fact a forgery struck from modern dies...

    But how was it possible ?I read so many times not to worry about cheap bronze coins. Forgers doesn’t touch these, it is not worthing it. And I paid about 15 $ for 25 uncleaned coins. There is no money to make there...

    So what is going on in the little brain of those forgers ? Maybe this short story can inlight us. When I was a student, I used to work as a ‘undercover’ security agent in a big drugstore. Our goal was to catch shoplifters. One day this man with a long trenchcoat came in and was very suspicious. I fallowed him discretly and saw him taking an object, unwrapping it and put it in his pocket. He finally left the store without paying, so we stopped him outside and called the cups. When the officier searched him, we discovered that he had stolen a small nail trimmer. 6.99$ retail price. We caught the guy just before he ran away in his 50000$ BMW...The policeman explained us that those cleptomaniac just steel for the thrill— the adrenaline boost. He called this a mental orgasm.

    I’m sure many forgers has the same kind of feelings when they achieve to fool someone, when they try to flood the market with their creations. Well, one of them had his little pleasure with the Gordian III coin...Am I the only one here who had been tricked once ?
    Please now be humble, and show us your shameful coins ! (If you did not destroyed them like I did )
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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    I've had this one since about 2008. I thought I had a legitimate JC for a long time, until it was pointed out as a Lipanov forgery or copy of one. Too late to return it to the seller, so I just keep it as a reminder.
    Julius Caesar 1a.jpg
    AR Denarius
    OBVERSE: COS.TERT.DICT.ITER. Head of Ceres right
    REVERSE: / AVGVR above, PONT.MAX. below. Simpulum, sprinkler, capis and lituus; M in right field
    Utica 46 BC
    2.7g, 17mm
    Syd 1024; Crawford 467/1b
  4. Mkman123

    Mkman123 Well-Known Member

    Does this make more of you ancients collectors want to buy slabbed coins that have been seen by Vagi, Barry, etc? Though NGC ancients doesn't guarantee that a coin is real, I'm sure they do their best to verify something isn't a counterfeit.
  5. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    There are a several scenarios that come to mind to explain why such a coin could appear in a humble lot of uncleaned coins.

    First, many forgers salt larger groups of genuine coins with fakes. It makes the group appear that it has more value when it does not, but it brings up the end price on the lot. Many times if a lot is crusty and dirty such fakes will escape notice, especially when a dealer or collector is looking at many coins quickly.

    Second, some forgers will want to give their creations some legitimacy by placing them in large lots of genuine coins. It can lend credibility to the fake and offer subsequent sales for the forger under different circumstances.

    Lastly, as you already pointed out, some forgers do it because they can. They want to see if they can create something which will be accepted as the real thing.

    There are other circumstances of course, but these are what come to my mind.
  6. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random nobody...

    This counterfeit was seeded into a lot I bought. I didn’t notice it until I started cleaning it. I got a partial refund from the seller, and I still have the fake.

    AE0E8F18-CB24-40D2-B37C-24CC8FD9E36B.jpeg 786C4BD6-048D-4BC3-B7D2-05D930F5613D.jpeg
  7. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    I just read the thread over at FORVM. Very interesting. The style of the obverse looks a bit weird but Gordian portraits vary so much I wouldn’t have questioned it much myself. The coin looks struck, and the striking and flan look right. Lots of good eyes looking at that thread now. I’ll be following.

    I’ve had a few times that I know of being fooled... and probably several I don’t yet know about. I’m away from home and will post a few when I can. It’s happened to everyone (whether they know it or not)!
  8. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    You are absolutely right. Bob Bischoff wrote an article about this 10 years ago. He found 316 fakes in a lot of 1000 uncleaned coins ! Here is the link for his writing.
    7Calbrey likes this.
  9. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    I bought this ancient tiny owl within a lot of 6. I posted them on Coin Talk, and after a long and difficult debate, it appeared that 5 were fakes whereas only one was genuine dating back to the year 370 BC( Phoenician). I turned them back and kept the genuine one for 40 dollars. Here's one of the "dirty" fakes. What kind of forger's policy is that ? What would I have done without CT ? Imagine !

    TinOwl O        Attica.jpg TinOwly R      Athens.jpg
  10. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    A Constantius II medallion in an uncleaned lot should be enough to raise some questions. These pieces are just not likely looked over by dealers and because they are very sought after the incentive to counterfeit them is higher than average.
  11. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Can you post a link? I can't seem to find it
  12. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    Orange Julius and Jay GT4 like this.
  13. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Thanks! I await to hear what others have to say. Everyone in that discussion knows their stuff!
    Orange Julius and Justin Lee like this.
  14. Orange Julius

    Orange Julius Well-Known Member

    Yeah the coin linked in one of the later replies from the fake reports looks fake. The fields look flat in a modern way and the style looks off and is more noticeable because the coin itself looks off.

    ...but the OP would have fooled me as the fields, strike, flan all come together convincingly enough to not make me question the slightly odd style.
    arizonarobin, 7Calbrey and Jay GT4 like this.
  15. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    (Regarding the Gordian III discussed on FAC):

    Interesting. There's no doubt that it is a reverse die match to the forgery linked in that thread but I don't know GIII antoniniani well enough to know if that reverse could be a transfer die from an authentic reverse. The obverse doesn't match the fake, but of course forgers don't always use the same pairing.

    I don't think the portrait looks quite right but that particular coin wouldn't have made me suspicious.
  16. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    I fully agree that I was naive. But for a new collector 15 years ago, it wasn’t that obvious. With no internet, no other ancient coin lover in my town, no idea at all about these Eastern European bronze coin forgers, I got fooled ....mea culpa!
    7Calbrey likes this.
  17. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    I didn't mean to sound condescending, especially in a post called A lesson of humility. What I mean is that when something is so different than the bulk of the rest skepticism is a must, especially in coin collecting. When I first came to grips with the fact that you could buy a "so-called" coin from 1700 years ago I thought 99% of everything available was fake. And for many people paranoia is the default position at the beginning of their journey through ancient coins.
  18. Orfew

    Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus Supporter

    In a word...NO. It makes me want to keep buying from reliable sources.
    Mkman123, Orielensis, Ryro and 8 others like this.
  19. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

  20. David Atherton

    David Atherton Flavian Fanatic

    No. Know the coin or know the seller, ideally know both! Slabbing is no guarantee of authenticity.
  21. Carthago

    Carthago Does this look infected to you?

    Forgeries come in all shapes, sizes and values. Do not think for a second that some poor Palestinian kid wouldn't forge widow's mites to sell to dumb tourists at $5/apiece or even less. That's a lot of money to that kid. Anything and everything is subject to forgery.
    Alegandron, Cucumbor and Carausius like this.
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