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<p>[QUOTE="Sulla80, post: 5249031, member: 99456"]It is an interesting question that I have been pondering from your <a href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-cistophoric-tetradrachm-from-a-roman-republican-province.361983/#post-4578121" class="internalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-cistophoric-tetradrachm-from-a-roman-republican-province.361983/#post-4578121">earlier post</a>. <b>Disclaimer:</b> I am, over time, absorbing some of the publications and periodically wander back to these coins of the Roman republic and Asia minor. The trigger is usually acquiring another tetradrachm. However, I am a long way from "expert".</p><p><br /></p><p>Why do I wander back to these "ugly" and "uninteresting" coins: the Roman republican and Sulla connections, the concept of a "closed" monetary system and stories of Asia minor-Roman integration (avoiding: Romanization). On the quote from Kleiner, I also think it is reasonable to ask: were these dates of formation of a Roman province or dates of Ephesus city granted autonomy which could both be connected with the death of Attalus III? the latter seems more likely to me.</p><p><br /></p><p><b>From the Treaty of Apameia, 188 BC, Tralles was under Attalid rule</b>.</p><p><font size="3"><i>"As to king Eumenes and his brothers, not content with the liberal provision made for them in their treaty with Antiochus, they [Rome] now assigned him in addition the Chersonese, Lysimacheia, and the castles on the borders of these districts, and such country as had been subject to Antiochus in Europe; and in Asia, Phrygia on the Hellespont, Great Phrygia, so much of Mysia as he had before subjugated, Lycaonia, Milyas, Lydia, Tralles, Ephesus, and Telmissus: all these they gave to Eumenes."</i></font></p><p><font size="3"><i>- Polybius, Histories <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0234:book=21:chapter=48&highlight=tralles" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0234:book=21:chapter=48&highlight=tralles" rel="nofollow">21.48</a></i></font></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>Tralles dates</b>: Here's a bit of a meandering answer. Perhaps there is a date when Tralles became "autonomous" during war with Aristonicus/Eumenes III? or later?</p><p><br /></p><p>Could the <b>use of Macedonian months at the Tralles mint</b> be relevant - I am not sure what to do with it:</p><p>- ASHTON, R., & KINNS, P. (2003). <a href="http://www.jstor.org/stable/42667162" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://www.jstor.org/stable/42667162" rel="nofollow">Opuscula Anatolica II</a>. <i>The Numismatic Chronicle (1966-),</i> <i>163</i>, 41-47. Cistophoric coins from Tralles with "Tyche holding a cornucopia": <i><font size="3">"the initials, as transcribed by Kleiner and Noe, are ATT, 'AV', AA, AAI, ZAN, TTE, 'OA', YTT, and YTT above EN. It is not difficult to detect in them the Macedonian months Apellaios, Audnaios, Daisios..."</font></i></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Was there a "Sullan era"? </b>I am not sure what is intended by "inaugurating a new era" in this reference and I would like to find the underlying paper:</p><p><font size="3"><i>"Regling, Frankfurter Münzzeitung n.F. 3 (1932) 506-10, showed, on the basis of the Karacabey hoard (IGCH 1358), that Tralles continued cistophoric coinage after Sulla, inaugurating a new era in 85/84" <a href="https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&doc.view=popup&chunk.id=fnd0e23097" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&doc.view=popup&chunk.id=fnd0e23097" rel="nofollow">*</a> </i></font></p><p><font size="3"><i>- <a href="https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&chunk.id=d0e20271&toc.id=d0e19300&toc.depth=1&brand=eschol&anchor.id=JD_Page_277#X" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&chunk.id=d0e20271&toc.id=d0e19300&toc.depth=1&brand=eschol&anchor.id=JD_Page_277#X" rel="nofollow">Hegemony to Empire</a> (1996)</i></font></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Correlation between Ephesus dates and Tralles dates? </b>a lead, with this <a href="https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8222TP0" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8222TP0" rel="nofollow">Columbia thesis</a> (2016) from Lucia Carbone, whose ANS articles I have read with interest. I liked this note: <font size="3">"It is quite striking to notice how M. Aquilius’ road connected the six cities (Adramyteum, Pergamum, Sardis, Ephesus, Tralles and Laodicea) that are known as cistophoric mints and have also operated as conventus centers."</font></p><p><b><font size="3">and she cites:</font></b></p><p><font size="3">CALLATAY, "L’Histoire des Guerres Mithridatiques vue par les Monnaies, Louvain-la-Neuve", 1997, p.178. This hoard, buried in ca.75 BC, enabled the chronological correlation between dated Ephesian cistophori (up to year 56) and the Tralles ΠΤΟΛ ones (up to year 9).</font></p><p><b><font size="3">and...p 170-173</font></b></p><p><font size="3">"Moreover, a fourth hoard, IGCH 1358, dated to 75 BC, enables us to determine the presence of a Sullan age in Tralles, and allows a precise dating of the ΠΤΟΛ issues to 85-77 BC, which corresponds roughly to Lucullus’ power in the province and to the exceptional issues caused by Sulla's command that taxes be paid in arrears, proving a further element of Roman involvement in the cistophoric issues."</font></p><p><b><font size="3">and p.173</font></b></p><p><font size="3"><b>ΠΤΟΛ</b>: The first issue with no dating, then Β to Θ, for a total of 8 issues. The presence of Lucullus is important for the cistophoric production of the cities of Asia and the end of the production of the cistophori of Ephesus is tightly linked to the end of ‘the Lucullus era’ in Asia (App. Mith. 12, 13.90; Dio 36.15.3; Plut. Vit. Luc. 35.3-8; Livy 98.9).</font></p><p><b><br /></b></p><p><b>and finally, </b><a href="https://www.academia.edu/14632153/Four_Cistophoric_Hoards" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.academia.edu/14632153/Four_Cistophoric_Hoards" rel="nofollow">this article of Andrew Meadows</a> on p.83 : <font size="3">"Ephesus to year 56 (79/8 BC); Tralles to year 9 (probably 77/6 BC). For discussion the hoard and the likely era of Tralles see <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Antike-Aren-Zeitrechnung-Schwarzmeerraum-Einzelschriften/dp/3515060189" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.amazon.com/Antike-Aren-Zeitrechnung-Schwarzmeerraum-Einzelschriften/dp/3515060189" rel="nofollow">Leschhorn 1993</a>: 208–212." </font></p><p><br /></p><p><b>Your coin, year H (8), has a "likely" date of <strike>76/5 </strike>78/7 BC </b>[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="Sulla80, post: 5249031, member: 99456"]It is an interesting question that I have been pondering from your [URL='https://www.cointalk.com/threads/a-cistophoric-tetradrachm-from-a-roman-republican-province.361983/#post-4578121']earlier post[/URL]. [B]Disclaimer:[/B] I am, over time, absorbing some of the publications and periodically wander back to these coins of the Roman republic and Asia minor. The trigger is usually acquiring another tetradrachm. However, I am a long way from "expert". Why do I wander back to these "ugly" and "uninteresting" coins: the Roman republican and Sulla connections, the concept of a "closed" monetary system and stories of Asia minor-Roman integration (avoiding: Romanization). On the quote from Kleiner, I also think it is reasonable to ask: were these dates of formation of a Roman province or dates of Ephesus city granted autonomy which could both be connected with the death of Attalus III? the latter seems more likely to me. [B]From the Treaty of Apameia, 188 BC, Tralles was under Attalid rule[/B]. [SIZE=3][I]"As to king Eumenes and his brothers, not content with the liberal provision made for them in their treaty with Antiochus, they [Rome] now assigned him in addition the Chersonese, Lysimacheia, and the castles on the borders of these districts, and such country as had been subject to Antiochus in Europe; and in Asia, Phrygia on the Hellespont, Great Phrygia, so much of Mysia as he had before subjugated, Lycaonia, Milyas, Lydia, Tralles, Ephesus, and Telmissus: all these they gave to Eumenes."[/I] [I]- Polybius, Histories [URL='http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0234:book=21:chapter=48&highlight=tralles']21.48[/URL][/I][/SIZE] [B] Tralles dates[/B]: Here's a bit of a meandering answer. Perhaps there is a date when Tralles became "autonomous" during war with Aristonicus/Eumenes III? or later? Could the [B]use of Macedonian months at the Tralles mint[/B] be relevant - I am not sure what to do with it: - ASHTON, R., & KINNS, P. (2003). [URL='http://www.jstor.org/stable/42667162']Opuscula Anatolica II[/URL]. [I]The Numismatic Chronicle (1966-),[/I] [I]163[/I], 41-47. Cistophoric coins from Tralles with "Tyche holding a cornucopia": [I][SIZE=3]"the initials, as transcribed by Kleiner and Noe, are ATT, 'AV', AA, AAI, ZAN, TTE, 'OA', YTT, and YTT above EN. It is not difficult to detect in them the Macedonian months Apellaios, Audnaios, Daisios..."[/SIZE][/I] [B]Was there a "Sullan era"? [/B]I am not sure what is intended by "inaugurating a new era" in this reference and I would like to find the underlying paper: [SIZE=3][I]"Regling, Frankfurter Münzzeitung n.F. 3 (1932) 506-10, showed, on the basis of the Karacabey hoard (IGCH 1358), that Tralles continued cistophoric coinage after Sulla, inaugurating a new era in 85/84" [URL='https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&doc.view=popup&chunk.id=fnd0e23097']*[/URL] [/I] [I]- [URL='https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1x0nb0dk&chunk.id=d0e20271&toc.id=d0e19300&toc.depth=1&brand=eschol&anchor.id=JD_Page_277#X']Hegemony to Empire[/URL] (1996)[/I][/SIZE] [B]Correlation between Ephesus dates and Tralles dates? [/B]a lead, with this [URL='https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8222TP0']Columbia thesis[/URL] (2016) from Lucia Carbone, whose ANS articles I have read with interest. I liked this note: [SIZE=3]"It is quite striking to notice how M. Aquilius’ road connected the six cities (Adramyteum, Pergamum, Sardis, Ephesus, Tralles and Laodicea) that are known as cistophoric mints and have also operated as conventus centers."[/SIZE] [B][SIZE=3]and she cites:[/SIZE][/B] [SIZE=3]CALLATAY, "L’Histoire des Guerres Mithridatiques vue par les Monnaies, Louvain-la-Neuve", 1997, p.178. This hoard, buried in ca.75 BC, enabled the chronological correlation between dated Ephesian cistophori (up to year 56) and the Tralles ΠΤΟΛ ones (up to year 9).[/SIZE] [B][SIZE=3]and...p 170-173[/SIZE][/B] [SIZE=3]"Moreover, a fourth hoard, IGCH 1358, dated to 75 BC, enables us to determine the presence of a Sullan age in Tralles, and allows a precise dating of the ΠΤΟΛ issues to 85-77 BC, which corresponds roughly to Lucullus’ power in the province and to the exceptional issues caused by Sulla's command that taxes be paid in arrears, proving a further element of Roman involvement in the cistophoric issues."[/SIZE] [B][SIZE=3]and p.173[/SIZE][/B] [SIZE=3][B]ΠΤΟΛ[/B]: The first issue with no dating, then Β to Θ, for a total of 8 issues. The presence of Lucullus is important for the cistophoric production of the cities of Asia and the end of the production of the cistophori of Ephesus is tightly linked to the end of ‘the Lucullus era’ in Asia (App. Mith. 12, 13.90; Dio 36.15.3; Plut. Vit. Luc. 35.3-8; Livy 98.9).[/SIZE] [B] and finally, [/B][URL='https://www.academia.edu/14632153/Four_Cistophoric_Hoards']this article of Andrew Meadows[/URL] on p.83 : [SIZE=3]"Ephesus to year 56 (79/8 BC); Tralles to year 9 (probably 77/6 BC). For discussion the hoard and the likely era of Tralles see [URL='https://www.amazon.com/Antike-Aren-Zeitrechnung-Schwarzmeerraum-Einzelschriften/dp/3515060189']Leschhorn 1993[/URL]: 208–212." [/SIZE] [B]Your coin, year H (8), has a "likely" date of [S]76/5 [/S]78/7 BC [/B][/QUOTE]
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