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Message:: [QUOTE="Chris B, post: 26758770, member: 87179"]Recently I have been looking at, and buying when able, British Empire hammered gold. A few months ago I posted a Scottish gold Unite that is my most significant purchase to date in this area. More recently I have been trying to find a decent gold Noble that I could afford. I still haven’t found one but stumbled across the Dutch imitations which intrigued me. Honestly, I didn’t know that they existed. I’m a little disappointed that NGC didn’t put the weight on the label. They do on most hammered gold and that is one of the diagnostics for the imitations. Not sure why they would choose not to. This one was made a little more affordable by being in a details (bent) NGC holder. [ATTACH=full]1708702[/ATTACH] Kampen. City gold Imitative Rose Noble ND (1590-1593) AU Details (Bent) NGC, Kampen mint, Fr-151-1. Regular C on flag (obverse). Quite charming as a coat of glossy luster is still visible across the surfaces. From the Red River Trove Metal: Gold Diameter: 36mm Full disclosure, the following text is almost entirely AI generated. It’s disappointing but also fascinating to me. I have not verified all of the information myself but what I have checked is correct. I admit that I am not a fan of AI being everywhere in our lives but this got my attention. This is a pretty obscure topic that doesn’t have a lot of literature, especially in English, available. If you know of any mistakes in the text, let me know so I can change my notes. The English gold noble, first struck under Edward III (from 1344), became one of the best-known gold coins of late medieval Europe. Its consistent gold content and wide circulation—especially through England’s wool and cloth trade with the Low Countries—made it a convenient reference point for merchants and moneychangers. In the medieval Netherlands (more broadly, the Low Countries), several authorities produced coins that closely copied the noble’s types, legends, and sometimes its weight standard, either to facilitate trade, to compete for seigniorage, or to supply local demand when English nobles were scarce. For your purposes here, the key distinction is between (1) medieval Low Countries imitations of the 14th–15th century English noble, and (2) the early modern Dutch rozenobel (“rose noble”) tradition of the late 1500s–early 1600s, which is modeled more closely on the English rose noble/ryal type. The rozenobel series is its own collecting field, tied to the coinage of the Dutch Revolt and early Republic, and it repays being treated separately from medieval noble imitations. Background: Why the Noble Was Imitated in the Low Countries<ul> <li>Trade and payments. England’s export economy (notably wool) was tightly connected to Flemish and Dutch markets. Gold coins that were familiar and easily valued reduced friction in large transactions.</li> <li>Reputation and recognizability. The noble’s iconography (king in a ship; shield on reverse) and its long-running type made it “brand-like” for users across borders.</li> <li>Gold shortages and substitution. Periodic scarcity of good-quality gold coin drove demand for substitutes that would pass readily in commerce.</li> <li>Mint profit and competition. Low Countries rulers and cities could attract bullion to their mints by striking a coin that international merchants already trusted.</li> <li>Political fragmentation. The region’s many issuing authorities (counties, duchies, lordships, and some cities) encouraged experimentation with types that had demonstrated market acceptance.</li> </ul>ChronologyMid-to-late 14th century: English nobles abroad and early copyingFrom the later 1300s, English nobles circulated on the Continent as trade payments and as bullion. In the Low Countries, where cross-border commerce was routine, moneychangers and merchants developed working valuations for nobles alongside French, imperial, and local gold issues. This is the setting in which the first “noble-like” pieces appear: coins made to be accepted at noble-equivalent values, typically imitating the most immediately diagnostic elements of English types (ship/king obverse; shield/cross reverse) even when the engravers’ style, letter forms, or spellings diverge from English originals. 15th century: Peak period for noble imitations in the Netherlands/Low CountriesThe greatest concentration of Low Countries imitations is generally placed in the 1400s, when (a) English gold continued to be valued in international trade, (b) the Burgundian state and its neighbors issued substantial gold, and (c) monetary authorities were competing to produce exportable, widely accepted coin. Imitations range from careful copies—close enough to circulate with minimal discount—to cruder pieces made for local use or for opportunistic profit. Because legends were often copied mechanically and sometimes “pseudo-legend” letterforms were used, modern attribution frequently depends on stylistic analysis, hoard evidence, metallurgical study, and comparisons to securely attributed regional coinages. Late 16th to early 17th century: Dutch “Rozenobel” (Rose Noble) issues, c. 1579–1603The Dutch rozenobel (“rose noble”) is an early modern gold coin of the Dutch Revolt / early Republic era that consciously echoes the English rose noble (also called the ryal), introduced in England under Edward IV (1460s) and later continued in modified forms. In the northern Netherlands, rozenobels were struck chiefly from the late 1500s into the early 1600s (often summarized as c. 1579–1603). They were not medieval copies of Edward III’s 14th-century noble; rather, they were trade-oriented gold issues designed to be readily accepted in an international market already accustomed to English ship-and-king imagery and “noble/ryal” accounting values. Who struck them (broadly): rozenobels are encountered under various issuing authorities within the Dutch Republic’s fragmented mint system—provincial mints (e.g., certain eastern and southern provinces) and, in some cases, city issues or private mint lords. Because types and legends can be very similar across issuers, precise attribution usually relies on the arms on the shield, small symbols on the ship, and the exact wording of the ‘MONE NOVA ORDINVM …’ (new money of the States/Orders of …) formula used by particular mints. Types and legends: many rozenobels keep the “king/knight in a ship” concept, but the figure is often rendered as an armored knight standing in a ship, typically holding a sword and a shield bearing provincial arms. A small rose motif commonly appears on or near the ship (hence rozen-obel). Reverse designs frequently use a long cross (often floriated) with shields or ornaments in the angles, combined with Latin mottos that emphasize unity and divine protection—messages well-suited to the politics of the Revolt and the idea of provincial “concord.” <ul> <li>CONCORDIA RES PARVAE CRESCVNT (“Through concord, small things grow”) – a common Dutch-Republic motto appearing on many issues.</li> <li>SI DEUS NOBISCUM QUIS CONTRA NOS (“If God is with us, who can be against us”) – widely used on noble/ryal-type coinage traditions.</li> <li>MONE NOVA ORDINVM … (“New money of the States/Orders of …”) – issuer identification that typically continues with the province/city name in Latin.</li> </ul>Denominations: rozenobels are most often described in 1-unit and 2-unit (double) forms in modern catalogs. Standards and valuations varied by time and issuing authority, but they were conceived as high-value gold suitable for larger payments and cross-border trade, where recognizability mattered as much as strict local accounting compatibility. How Dutch rozenobels differ from English rose nobles/ryals (quick checks)<ul> <li>Legend language and political formulas: Dutch issues often include “MONE NOVA ORDINVM …” and mottos like “CONCORDIA RES PARVAE CRESCVNT,” which are not typical on English originals.</li> <li>Shield/arms: the shield carried by the figure (or shown on the reverse) commonly bears provincial arms rather than English royal arms.</li> <li>Figure style: the Dutch “ship” type often looks like a standing armored knight in a boat rather than a crowned king seated/standing in the traditional English noble arrangement (style varies by issue).</li> <li>Rose placement: a rose symbol may be prominent on the ship or in the design as a deliberate type-marker.</li> <li>Date and fabric: many are dated or attributable to the late 1500s/early 1600s by legend and style; they should not be confused with 14th–15th century noble imitations made for medieval circulation.</li> </ul>How to Identify a Low Countries Imitation (Practical Diagnostics)Attribution Challenges and How Scholars Approach ThemBecause many imitations were designed to resemble English coins as closely as possible, attribution is often probabilistic rather than absolute. Modern studies draw on (1) die-link and style analysis across surviving specimens, (2) hoard evidence to establish where particular variants circulated, (3) metallurgical testing to distinguish honest trade coin from deceptive plated fabric, and (4) archival mint records where they survive. As a result, catalog descriptions may use cautious language (“in the Low Countries,” “probably Flemish/Dutch,” “Burgundian Netherlands”) unless a type is securely tied to a specific authority or mint. Collecting, Cataloging, and Research Tips<ul> <li>Record the basics: weight (to 0.01 g if possible), diameter, die axis, and any edge evidence of clipping.</li> <li>Photograph clearly: straight-on obverse/reverse images with raking light to capture surface plating or tooling.</li> <li>Compare to English prototypes: identify the closest English type first (Edward III pre-treaty/treaty; later issues), then assess deviations.</li> <li>Keep attributions flexible: note both “prototype” and “probable region,” and update as new references appear.</li> <li>Watch terminology: distinguish medieval “foreign imitations of the English noble” from later Dutch “noble/rose noble”-named gold.</li> </ul>Selected Further Reading (Starting Points)<ul> <li>Auction and reference listings for Rozenobel (Rose Noble) issues (often provide clear photos, weights, and legend variants useful for attribution).</li> <li>A History of Netherlands (Low Countries) Imitations of the English Gold Noble</li> <li>General references on Dutch Republic provincial coinage (helpful for understanding the decentralized mint structure behind rozenobels and for identifying provincial arms).</li> <li>Type-catalog style resources (with photographs) for “1 rozenobel” and “double rozenobel” by province—useful for matching legends such as “MONE NOVA ORDINVM …” and mottos like “CONCORDIA RES PARVAE CRESCVNT.”</li> <li>Rory Naismith (ed.), Money and Coinage in the Middle Ages (background context for medieval nobles and their circulation; not a primary reference for rozenobels).</li> <li>Standard catalogs of Dutch Republic provincial and city coinage (early modern Netherlands), which usually list rozenobels/ryals and their variants by issuer.</li> </ul>Practical Diagnostics <ul> <li>Style and engraving. Look for letterforms, crown/ship details, and shield rendering that differ from English mint style of the purported reign.</li> <li>Legends and spellings. Imitations may show garbled Latin/French, unusual abbreviations, letter reversals, or repetitive “filler” characters.</li> <li>Weight standard and module. Many imitations aim near the noble’s theoretical standard, but practical weights can be lower; compare against the relevant English issue and account for clipping/wear.</li> <li>Metal quality. Contemporary imitations can be good gold, debased gold, or even silver-gilt in deceptive pieces; non-destructive XRF (when available) can be revealing.</li> <li>Mint marks and symbols. Some pieces show small marks or devices more typical of continental practice; attribution often relies on these in combination with style.</li> <li>Context (hoards and provenances). Hoard composition and findspots are often the strongest evidence for geographic attribution when the coin itself is ambiguous.</li> </ul>[ATTACH=full]1708703[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]

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