A fake coin in a genuine PCGS holder?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by ToughCOINS, Jun 28, 2019.

  1. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

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  3. Hookman

    Hookman Well-Known Member

    The color seems a bit dark, but then, silver tarnishes.

    Hey, you're the dealer ! "Deal" us in !! No substantiation ?
  4. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I agree the date looks funny, but it could be lighting from those awful pics. The rest of the coin looks correct, along with the luster.
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  5. C-B-D

    C-B-D U.S. Type Coins or death!

    I think it's just the pics. The lighting on the OP coin is coming from the 6 o'clock direction.
    Coin in question:

    3 examples from PCGS Coinfacts:
    20190629_061330.jpg 20190629_061312.jpg 20190629_061256.jpg
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  6. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    My perception is that the vertical strokes of all of the numerals look suspiciously thin on the coin I've questioned. The alphas do not look that way to me, although they do look sort of mushy for the issue.

    I'm questioning whether this coin is a product of dies made by first removing the date from the original coin and then transferring the design minus date to make counterfeit transfer dies, to which a different date is added. I've seen and called out such coins in the raw before, but never in a TPG holder.

    My purpose in writing this thread is simply to get more eyes on the coin to make sure I'm not seeing things. If everyone else thinks the numerals are out of character, and the alphas look soft, then I am certain this coin is not real. If others don't see what I see, then I'll reserve judgment.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  7. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Here is another look at the date compared with one of the "Coin Facts" pieces.

    1864 half dime Date.jpg 1864 half dime gen date.jpg

    I believe that the coin is genuine, but you are certainly wise to not take every offering in a TPG holder for granted. Here is an example of who you should keep your eyes open.

    Here is a counterfeit 1881 Trade Dollar in a fake PCGS holder.

    1881 Fake Slab O.jpg 1881 Fake Slab R.jpg

    And here is the real coin. The crooks stole the serial number from this slab to make their counterfeit. Looking up the slab serial number on the PCGS site and matching just the number is not enough. Not all PCGS coins are photographed so that you can match them. You also have to be able to spot the fake coin.

    1881 Fake Real copy.png
  8. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    While fakes have found their way into TPG holders, I'm don't think that this is one of them. Loss of detail on fakes doesn't scale down with the coin's size. This means that the detail on a half dime should be pretty bad compared to the detail on fake dollar, and the detail looks pretty good. The lighting is also playing tricks on your perception of the digits.

    You have both the eBay "forever" (figuratively) return policy and a TPG guarantee to back you up if you buy it and it's bad. The Steve Crain half dime reference set is also online so that you can verify the validity of the die marriage.
  9. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    I'd be careful about stating that loss of detail doesn't scale down on fakes with the coin's size. The amount of tonnage required to transfer adequate detail on large coins would be more than sufficient to transfer generous detail on smaller coins of the same material. I've already handled and returned a couple of fake half dimes with surprisingly good definition. Interestingly, in both cases, the images were somewhat out-of-focus, and I suspect the sellers knew exactly what they were up to.

    As for being able to safely buy, examine and return the coin, you're right, for those contemplating purchase of the subject coin. I had already ruled it out, but continued examining it more critically because it didn't look right to me. If I'm not mistaken, there is only one marriage of 1864-S.
  10. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    A crude holder and a laughable coin, especially representing a proof of the type.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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  11. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    I've seen worse counterfeits in fake holders. Check this "beauty" in the "MS-65" grade.

    1908-D $20 fake O.png 1908-D $20 fake R.png 1908-D $20 fake O Close.png 1908-D $20 fake R Close.png
  12. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

  13. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I am not a half dime collector, but @Paddy54 should be able to comment on this coin :)
  14. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I don’t understand why someone would go through the effort to counterfeit a slab for such a poor quality fake, and to assign a proof cameo grade when the details are EF at best. A lot of us are afraid of Chinese counterfeiting but I think sometimes we give them too much credit.
  15. Sunflower_Coins

    Sunflower_Coins Importer and Exporter

    No one will pay market value for it. But if some sucker decides he has nothing to lose and pays $20, I'm sure the Chinese can produce them cheaply enough to make a profit.
  16. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    There are a lot of people who couldn't grade a coin if their life depended upon it. They come to believe in slabs, and if you offer it to them at "bargain price," they will take a run at it. Just look at the bids the bad counterfeits get on eBay before or if the juck is taken down.

    There is no gold or silver in this junk. The Chinese can make it on the cheap. In the 1980s, it was AU coins marketed as "MS-65 investment quality" scams. Now it's Chienese Junk.

    Take a look at this "American Silver Eagle thing." It's in a genuine mint package with the Certificate of Authenticity, but the artwork is really crude.

    2015 Sil Eagle Pr   Fake Pack.jpg 2015 Sil Eagle Pr Fake O Nikon.jpg 2015 Sil Eagle Pr Fake R.jpg
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  17. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    Remember, there are always newbies entering the eBay marketplace who have never even seen a gold coin before, let alone a slabbed one. Yet, because they've heard that buying slabbed gold coins is the only way to go, they'd be perfectly willing to throw caution to the wind on an out-of-focus, no return coin, as long as they win it for cheap money. I'm sure that's the type of buyer the above Saint must have been intended for.
  18. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Why would anyone go through all that trouble to counterfeit that?
  19. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Variety Collector

    The dime is very suspicious to my eyes given the images to work with. The numbers do not look correct they are to perfect cut as the 1864 dates.
    With only 48 000 pieces struck in Philly, 90,000 at the San Francisco mint..
    The coin in question would be a hard pass.....as I'm sure the price would be quite steep.
  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Why do the Chinese counterfeit common date Morgan Dollars in circulated condition? They can make money at it.
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  21. Heavymetal

    Heavymetal Well-Known Member

    Because they can
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