A Denarius of Otho

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Gam3rBlake, May 12, 2022.

  1. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Well I heard back from Heritage. It looks like they’re checking into it.
    This is what I was afraid of. When I just say that people here on the CT forums pointed out some oddities it’s sort of brushed off as an “opinion” by a non-expert.

    It’s a bit frustrating because the whole reason I pay extra money for slabs and stick with reputable sellers is to avoid these kinds of questions of authenticity. :/
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  3. Herodotus

    Herodotus Well-Known Member

    Theoderic and Ryro like this.
  4. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Well, the mistake was trusting ANACS, :p:D

    I don't mind them for U.S. and even modern world coins, but ancients...nah. Same goes for ICG & ancients.

    Big no to them with Medieval coins.

    IF and I do mean IF I used slabs & ancients, NGC would be my choice easily.
  5. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    My trust was more in Heritage than ANACS. xD

    I wonder if it’s really silver.
    Kentucky likes this.
  6. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Supporter! Supporter

    Threatening a BBB complaint when buying from one of the largest dealers in the world who guarantees their authenticity certainly sounds like a remarkably incorrect way to go about resolving your concerns.
    PeteB, Theoderic, Restitutor and 2 others like this.
  7. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Who threatened a BBB complaint?

    I specifically said that it’s a last resort thing and that I don’t like to do it.
  8. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Supporter! Supporter

    Let me clarify my initial post: My judgment "... the OP coin is unlikely to be genuine." was based solely on statistics, not on my evaluation of the coin's appearance and condition, in which I have only modest expertise. Over 100 apparently authentic Otho denarii in CNG's archives do not have a dot on their obverse legend between the M and the O, while the one Otho denarius in their archives with this feature is a clear forgery. Thus, statistically, I would expect any Otho denarii with the dot to be unlikely to be genuine.

    Although the link to your coin didn't work, if it has this dot and you're unable to find an RIC number for your coin, I would be highly doubtful that it's authentic.
    Gam3rBlake and Roman Collector like this.
  9. octavius

    octavius Well-Known Member

    Personally , I find slabbing of ancients to be more of a hindrance than an asset . You can't feel a coin to get an impression; you can't adequately examine the edge; you can't weigh it yourself, and the slabbing isn't even a guarantee of authenticity, so why bother.
    As for Heritage , they are a top notch company , and I'm sure they will want to keep you happy.
  10. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums Supporter

    I have news: the world expert on Otho denarii has condemned the coin. Case closed!

    @Mat had the great idea to contact Jyrki Muona, so I emailed him. (I also invited him to join CoinTalk which he tried to do, but no luck, unfortunately.) Here's what he said:

    I attempted to join, but there is confusion. Either I am already a member (possible, years ago) or they are unable to send me a password exchange email.

    Anyway. the coin. There is absolutely NO chance that it is genuine Rome mint Otho.
    1. The dots before M (faint) and after M in the IMP M OTHO obverse legend do not exist in any of the more than 500 dies I have recorded.
    2. The letter "I" in IMP starts in straight line from the extension of the neck. In all known right facing dies it is left of it and underneath the portrait.
    3. The shape of the back of the head and its hairdo are abnormal.
    4. The obverse legend break between CAESAR and AVG is at the forehead/hairline point. This is extremely rare, only four such dies are known.
    5. The head is unusually small, though not impossible.
    6. The weight is ridiculously high. Said to be a mistake. What rubbish for a slabbed coin that cannot be weighed now.
    HERITAGE uses, I believe David Vagi and NGC for authentication. I bet anything he has not seen this thing reputedly authenticated by another firm. Who knows, perhaps the slabbing is a fake?. Should be returned and knowing HERITAGE - a fine firm - there is no problem.
    Jyrki Muona
    professor emeritus
    P.S. I noted that the member who bought it thought Otho did not mint a lot of coins. Actually, he minted more imperial coins per day than anyone else during the first century and all of those were produce by the mint in Rome.​

    There's no question that Heritage will give a refund based on this expert opinion. I'm sure Dr. Muona would be happy to send it to them direct if they're concerned I might be making the message up. :D
  11. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Supporter! Supporter

  12. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Glad you were able to email him and get this sorted out. I figured he'd be the expert to ask regarding the coin.

    At least it's settled.:cool:
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  13. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry it turned out to be a fake. At least you should be able to get a refund. I thought the portrait and lettering were odd, as well as the rather strange wear pattern.
    Gam3rBlake and DonnaML like this.
  14. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    Here's mine. Nervously hopes that it's not a fake. I purchased it c. 1996.

    The mediocre photo will have to do for now.

    Otho - 69 - AR Denarius - 2.9g SECVRITAS RSC 17 - F+ aF.jpg
    Bing, DonnaML, Carl Wilmont and 3 others like this.
  15. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Yours looks good :).

    Heritage lost me as a customer forever.

    What a shame. I’ve spent 5 figures with them and they lose my business for life over a $400 coin. :(
  16. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    It’s not quite settled.

    Heritage is still putting me through the ringer with the whole “opinion” thing.

    Regardless of which experts tell me my coin is fake there is nothing to prevent Heritage from continuing to use the “that’s just their opinion” defense.

    I will call it settled if I get all my money back including taxes & credit card 2% fees.
  17. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    I hope everything gets settled.
    Gam3rBlake likes this.
  18. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    Have you informed them of the expert opinion of Jyrki Muona, and forwarded it to them? After all, he's the first person actually to pronounce the coin fake rather than simply raising questions. I suspect that you're being premature in concluding that they won't give you a refund. Zach Beasley, the Director of Ancient Coins at Heritage, is a member of the Facebook ancient coins group to which I belong, and is very clearly a reasonable person. So, please stay calm until he's had a chance to look at Mr. Muona's opinion. It is still the weekend, after all!
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
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  19. Ryro

    Ryro Trying to remove supporter status Supporter

    What sucker at Heritage, or elsewhere, could possibly look at that tooled Hadrian(?) with its cartoonish "Otho" legendand go...

    Can't believe anyone would tomb that joke, led alone, of all places, Heritage sell it and say they don't stand behind their product:facepalm: (though, with this posters track record I am NOT saying Heritage actually did respond that way. Merely how could they sell THATo_O?)
    My Otho from Frank Robinson, not slabbed, and he has refunded me on coins with concerns virtually no questions asked:
  20. Gam3rBlake

    Gam3rBlake Well-Known Member

    Yes I informed Mr. Beasley about the conclusion of Dr. Muona. I haven’t heard back yet because it’s a Sunday.

    The reason I can’t help but be premature is the message I got from Sarah who is an employee of Heritage herself.

    She basically just said I’ll get all kinds of opinions on the forums and that Heritage experts have already determined it’s authentic but that she’d have them look at it again. However the way it was phrased made it seem like I am being a huge bother to them even though I believe my concerns are 100% legitimate.

    Because of that response I can’t help but feel that Heritage is going to dismiss the concerns I raised.
  21. nerosmyfavorite68

    nerosmyfavorite68 Well-Known Member

    Things can look gloomy in the moment, but give it a few days. I'm sure they'll probably do the right thing.
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