These are a couple of deniers of Le Mans /Maine, both of which I bought mostly in the hope that they were 10th-c. immobilizations, perhaps as late as the earliest counts of record in the neighborhood. To spare you (plural ...yours truly included) the documentation, there are minor legend variants, especially from Depeyrot (3rd ed, 2008 --couldn't stop myself in time), that mmmMight date them as late as that. ...Except, the variants, such as they are, could no less plausibly put both of them all the way back to Charles II ('le chauve /the bald'); for this issue, c. 865-877. ...Especially in the absence of citations, this already went on too long. They're both easy variations of the commonest Carolingian issue, the 'GDR' deniers, from the later phases of Charles II's reign. The pics begin from opposite sides, but you get the drill: (Carolingian monogram: ) 'GRATIA DE_I REX,' followed by (cross), 'CINOMANNIS CIVITAS.'
Interesting and nice coins. I know too little about the immobilized issues, but several other members are more knowledgable, e.g. @seth77, @FitzNigel, @Orielensis come to mind, among others. Here are a few of my Carolingeans: Charles le chauve Charles le Chauve obole (sold this one) Charles le Chauve, immobilized obole Lotharious, minted in Bourges, denier. Charles le Chauve, immobilized denier (or obole - don't have the diameter here). A fragment of Charles le Chauve. Also, minted just a few years after the Carolingean period: Heinrich II, minted in Regensburg And finally, the one-eyed Bernhard I is watching you!
The eternal question in numismatic terms: when did the carolingian phase end and the feudal phase of the coinage begin? As the ancients couldn't have cared less for such delimitation, all we have today is style comparing, letter shapes, flan sizes etc. And a lot of room for error.
Interesting coins +VGO! I actually don’t have any carolingians yet - just a couple of imitations I’ve shared recently.
I like both your coins but unfortunately don't know enough about Carolingian coins to distinguish between original and later immobilized issued. My example of this type is not from Le Mans but from the debated "Curtisasonien" mint: Charles the Bald, Western Carolingian Empire, AR denier, 840–877 AD, "Curtisasonien" mint (Courcessin or Courgeon). Obv: +CRATIA D-I REX; Karolus monogram. Rev: +HCVRTISASONIEH; cross. 19.5mm, 1.69g. Ref: MEC I, 860–864.
@Roerbakmix, that's a Brilliant assemblage. It's an honour for you to have put it here! ...I Really like Bernhard! I'm very weak in German of the period; just Kluge (excellent, but of course not comprehensive) and a couple of particularly a propos auction catalogues. You're cordially invited to go into more detail about that one!
@seth77, thanks for the resonant confirmation! In the case of Carolingians, neither moderate blundering nor legend variants seem to consistently preclude original issues. It's effectively a matter of degree in either case. Hoard evidence is key, one notable example, in this context, being Dumas (cf. my post about the immobilization and prototype of Bayeux).
@FitzNigel, I don't remember yours off the top of my head. ...Nothing wrong with reposting them here, if you felt like it.... No, Really!
@Orielensis, for an only Carolingian, that one's Just Fine. ...The mint sent me to Depeyrot (3rd ed., 2008 --there's a newer one). If it's to any point, this is No. 375 there. ...Depeyrot lists them as being of Courgeon, with a brief, unenlightening discussion of the controversy. --He cites Dumas (Tresor de Fecamp, ...right, back to 1971), making her effectively redundant on the subject.
Here's another one that it was easy to find the .jpg of. Got it for the mint, to complement the ones of Richard I of Normandy. Charles II, king of (West) Francia 840-877, obole, 'GDR' type, from c. 865. Obv. 'C[/K]AROLVS' monogram; from 1 o'clock, C[/G]RATIA D-I REX. Rev. Cross; (from 9 o'clock: ) +ROTVIICVS CIVII+ ('/ROTVMAGVS CIVITAS) ...Regarding the denomination, it's a funly extreme instance of the revival of ones which were already old enough to be anachronistic. Including the 'denier' itself, and Sasanian and Islamic dirhams, complemented by Cilician Armenian trams. (Following the basic module of Ayyubid dirhams, and going on to influence the module of Venetian grossos.)
Ooooooo... I would like a Rouen mint DGR. I have my eye on a Curtisasonien example like @Orielensis, but my wallet needs time to recover after my most recent purchase. since it was asked, here are my two Carolingian imitatives: Early Medieval - Carolingian Imitation Viking / East Francia?, 10th c. (900-920s) AR Denier, 20.92 mm x 0.9 grams Obv.: Blundered legends surrounding Degenerate CAROLVS monogram Rev.: Nonsense legend surrounding cross pattee. Perhaps imitating an issue of Curtisasonien Ref.: Moesgaard, ‘A Survey of Coin Production and Currency in Normandy,’ 99-109 Ex. Todd Hansen Collection, purchased from Superior Stamp and Coin Note: Imitating a GDR (Gratia Dei Rex) denier of Charles the Bald (but likely an immobilized issue of Charles the Simple) Early Medieval - Carolingian Normandy Anonymous (Viking/Rollo-William Longsword), 10th c. (920s) AR Denier, 16mm x 0.57 grams Obv.: Counterclockwise legend +DOVVICVSIMP around small cross Rev.: Clockwise legend XRISTIANA REL around temple Note: Imitation of a Louis the Pious denier I seem to recall Moesgaard saying the imitative of Louis the Pious should be considered a denier and not an obole, but looking at these two side-by-side, the size and weight of the second sure suggests it should be an obole. I ought to pull out the article again and double check...
@FitzNigel, I'm trying, Really Hard, to restrain my penchant for rhetorical excess, about both of your examples, and your valued observations. From here, Anyone who cites Moesgaard in this kind of context Gets some Serious Points. ...Maybe, after a suitable interval, I might have something by way moderately intelligent commentary. Just, not there yet; still processing the initial gestalt. (...Autism spectum; said that already, once, somewhere.)
Why cite Moesgaard when you could work with him? https://www.su.se/english/about-the...ailable-jobs?rmpage=job&rmjob=13121&rmlang=UK
