Featured A coin's fall from the Graces. Post of shame

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, Feb 28, 2020.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    Nectanebo II, (flourished 4th century bce), third and last king (reigned 360–343 bce) of the 30th dynasty of Egypt; he was the last of the native Egyptian kings


    ...and this thread aint about him.


    This thread is about just how far a coin can fall due to our (mis)perceptions/identifications, hoard finds etc.
    It seems nuts to me that we can find a hoard of 45,000 Attic owls and they still remain so expensive. Or something like the Black Sea Hoard, our own @Ed Snible put together a very thorough and eye opening article on this http://snible.org/coins/black_sea_hoard.html, and now most folks feel about those coins


    Cut to last year, I must say that when I read that, I too could own an ancient Egyptian bronze coin of a native Pharaoh, I was over the moon palace. When one would come up for sale I put down what to me were some heavy bids, into the hundos, and got skunked several times (thank Amon Ra!).
    And then what happens???
    Our good friend @TIF gives a polite heads up that these coins are not Old Necy Dos Equis: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/this-is-not-a-coin-of-nektanebo-ii.330670/
    So, because the leaping ram kinda looks like a leaping horse and the scale on the reverse vaguely looks like the hieroglyphics on the beautiful, rare and extremely expensive gold coins of NectoRoboto II, we have been told for some time that these must be related.

    All this despite Antioch and North Syria being where these coins are most common.
    Was this an honest mistake from a few lazy numismatists or an intentional falsehood to get suckers, like me, to pay for something that they weren't getting. My money is, sadly, on the latter day taints.
    And the most frustrating thing of all, there are numerous auctions going on right now that list this as god ol nectanebo ii (still realizing prices in the hundreds)!!! Always a good reason to cease buying from an auction house. If they will lie to you about the coins history what else are they going to lie about???


    That said, I was on eBay and one of my favorite auction houses had a coin honestly listed as LEVANTINE REGION and I was able to get this coin for well less than one tenth of wait I had bid on it previously (18 bucks with shipping).
    The coin is not great and that is just fine with me. I got it for the history...the modern history of it's misidentification and not its ancient history which is still murky at best.

    LEVANTINE REGION, Uncertain. 3rd century AD. Æ (15mm, 1.91 g, 11h). Ram leaping left, head reverted / Scales; pellet in central field; countermark: helmeted bust right. Butcher, p. 405, 11; Weiser 1 (Nektanebo II of Egypt); for countermark: Howgego pl. 9, 192 (on the same type listed as Commagene?). VF, dark green to black patina with earthen deposits. Weiser’s attribution of this type to the Egyptian Pharaoh Nektanebo is primarily based on a loose typological similarity to an issue of gold coins that are Egyptian. While this attribution is still followed by some, more recent evidence has almost certainly shown this to be incorrect.
    All of these bronze coins seem to originate from sources outside of Egypt, particularly the northern Levant, which would not likely be in the circulation pattern of a 4th century BC bronze issue of Egypt (an argument that these may have been struck while Nektanebo was active in Syria during the Satrapal Revolt is completely implausible). Also, with the exception of the Athenian tetradrachm imitations that were likely struck in Egypt for external trade, there was no internal monetized economy that would be necessary to support such a bronze issue. In his book on the coins of Roman Syria, Butcher notes that the style of the leaping ram is very similar to 3rd century AD issues of Antioch, but also notes that it is a common type at Damaskos. Furthermore, Butcher notes that Newell had attributed two of these in the ANS to an uncertain mint in Commagene, although his rationale is unknown. Thus, Butcher attributes these to an uncertain mint in northern Syria in the 3rd century AD.

    Please post all of your coins and comments of coins that have fallen from grace, thats prices have plummeted or that you bought thinking it was one thing and it ended up being something completely different.
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  3. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Hey, Dude... who knows... Nektanebo may rise from his sarcophagus and reveal that, “YES, These ARE my coins!”

    “Alleged” - Egypt Pharaoh Nektanebo II 361-343 BCE Ram Scales Weiser 1 - Butcher 11 uncertain no, Syria
  4. svessien

    svessien Senior Member


    I bought something that I «suspected» was an unknown silver strike of a 1810 2 skilling 15 years ago. It was a modern production. Since that, I have not trusted my ability to find something spectacular that nobody else knew about.
    Alegandron, Roman Collector and Ryro like this.
  5. Ryro

    Ryro You'll never be lovelier than you are now... Supporter

    Brother, I hope so. Cause that is a much nicer coin then mine. And it still frustrates me how much they look like those gold treasures of Nect nopes that you see in AC search or that @AncientJoe surprised us with (the first of the type I recall seeing).
    And as for the pharaoh coming back to life, I think it's been done, once or twice. But one of my favorites that doesn't get enough play is...

  6. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    LOL, gotta see that.
    Ryro likes this.
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Here's one often attributed to Caesonia, but it is not really her. I bought it decades ago because I had to have a "Caesonia" for my collection. At least it has Caligula:

    Caligula AD 37-41.
    Roman provincial Æ 28 mm, 11.17 gm.
    Carthago Nova, Spain, AD 37-38.
    Obv: C. CAESAR AVG. GERMANIC. IMP. P.M. TR.P. COS., laureate head of Caligula, right.
    Rev: CN. ATEL. FLAC. CN. POM. FLAC. II. VIR. Q.V.I.N.C., head of Salus right, SAL AVG across field.
    Refs: SGI 419; Heiss 272, 35; Cohen 247, 1; RPC 1, 185; SNG Cop 503.

    The coin's reverse depicts Salus and the attribution to Caesonia is fanciful. David Vagi (Coinage and History of the Roman Empire. Vol. 1, Coinworld, 1999, p.148) states:

    "The bust of Salus (health) on aes struck at Cathago Nova ... by Caligula is often misattributed as a representation of Caesonia. In fact, it was struck before they were wed, and it more likely is an allusion to Antonia, whose health was failing as she neared the end of her life."

    This is a REAL Caesonia, with her name on it and everything, from Wildwinds:

    Caesonia, AE18 of Caesaraea Panias, Syria. Dated RY 5 of Agrippa I (AD 40-41). (KAIΣΩNIA ΓYNH ΣEBAΣTOY), Draped bust of Caesonia left, wearing hair in long plait / (ΔΡOYΣIΛΛA ΘYΓATΡI ΣEBAΣTOY), Drusilla standing facing, head right, holding Nike and branch, LE in left field. RPC 4977; Meshorer 117; SNG ANS -.
    Johndakerftw, Ryro and Bing like this.
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