74 S Proof Ike "Micro S" Two Different Metal Composition Coins "One Die"

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Stewart, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. Stewart

    Stewart Searcher of the Unique

    Something to look for on the mint mark of the 74-S Proofs
    if for what is called a "Micro "S"
    It was for a very long time to be thought that it was only
    on the 1974 S 40% Silver Proof Eisenhower's. A 1 Die Coin.

    Quote of Brian Vaile of the Ike Group
    "Now, with the help from Mr. Wexler, we have found proof that the EXACT, SAME DIE
    was also used to strike up a 74-S Copper-Nickel Proof as well."


    Making both versions even rarer. Being that both metal
    compositions of the coin were struck with the exact
    same die
    Below are some shots to help with Identification.

    The reason for this thread is that this variety was just thought
    to be on the 74-S 40% Silver proof Dr. Wiles estimated that there
    was a total mintage of only 10,000. With the discovery of the
    Mint using this same die for the Cuni-Clad Proofs My guess is
    the number of 40% Silver ones is significantly lower.
    And I remember the last time Silver got to these lofty heights
    in 79 and 80 being at my local coin shop on average of two to three
    days a week and seeing Ikes being brought in to be melted by
    the moving box full. And now that Silver is back up there I would
    hate to see any more these rather rare varieties melted for
    their metal content.

    Link to article concerning the 1974-S Micro "S" before the discovery
    that the same die was used for Cuni-Clad Proofs.

    http://ikegroup.org/TWONEWCOLLECTIBLEIKES.htm



    Terry

    First the Cuni Clad Version

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Second The 40% Silver Version
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. iGradeMS70

    iGradeMS70 AKA BustHalfBrian

    I may be going blind, but that "S" mintmark looks like the correct size to me. :eek:ld-guy-smile:

    -Brian
     
  4. green18

    green18 Unknown member Sweet on Commemorative Coins Supporter

    But it's amazingly clear, unlike some of the "filled" mint mark pics from the link that Stew posted.....
     
  5. Stewart

    Stewart Searcher of the Unique

    I was just curious if anyone had found any examples of this Ike variety?
     
  6. jello

    jello Not Expert★NormL®

  7. Stewart

    Stewart Searcher of the Unique

    Jello,
    You would think that, Since posting this small article about this Ike variety
    I have only heard of one being found and it was just the other day.
    And it was not on the Ike Group. It was in another part of the coin collecting world.
    Also the 74 S 40% Micro "S" found the other day is also an Eskimo Boot PegLeg.
    Now I have to go back and check mine for the Peg Leg

    Stewart

    P.S. Again Beautiful looking 72 S MS67:thumb:
     
  8. 19Lyds

    19Lyds Member of the United States of Confusion

    I think it's important for folks to understand that there were two different mintmarks used in 1974 after the original mintmark (MMS-1) was replaced due to defects. The second mintmark comes in 3 distinct "stages". MMS-2a, MMS-2b and MMS-2c. The "Micro S" mintmark (MMS-1), IMO, is simply a weakly struck Mintmark and whether or not the die which received this weakly struck mintmark was used on the CopperNickel proofs is best left to John Wexler and whatever evidence that leads John and Brian to that conclusion. I have not seen it.

    Consider the following photo collage.

    1974 MintMarks-Text Arrows.jpg

    MMS-1 is quite common on Copper-Nickel Clad 1974-S Proof IKE's whereas its the "appearance" of the S Mintmark which makes it unique to both the 40% Silver proof and the CnClad Proof. Again, whether or not its from the same die is unknown to me.

    As you can see from the above photograph, the "clear" MM (referred to as Micro) has clear fields between the loops of the S whereas the standard MMS-1 does not. It's not because the mintmark punch itself is smaller but more an effect of a weak hit with the hammer when "applying" the mintmark to the die face. If the punch itself does not penetrate the die surface as deeply as intended then the resultant mintmark will have a smaller appearand in addition to having clear fields between the S Loops. The appearance of the mintmark can also be affected by the repeated die lapping/polishing of the fields as the cameo wore off whhich required the die to be "re-proofed".

    As an aside, it should also be noted that MMS-2b is much rarer than the MMS-1 or MMS-1 (Clear) and the photograph on the IKE Groups linked page is not an MMS-2b which should show a "split" serif but NO evidence of doubling which is characteristic of MMS-2c.

    Consider the following photographs. In a letter dated 10/11/2010, Mr. Wiles stated that this was "poosibly" an MMS-2b.

    1974-S MMS-2b-01.jpg 1974-S MMS-2b-02.jpg

    For complete information on these mintmarks, check out James Wiles book "CONECA Attribution Guide to Eisenhower Dollar Die Varieties". The book is way out of print but can be checked out of the ANA Library for the cost of postage.

    On page 18 of the above book, Mr. Wiles states: "The 1974-S STYLE 1 mintmark is common except on the (1974) silver proof Ike, where it is considered rare with an estimated mintage of less than 10,000."

    So, what we have is the original mintmark (MMS-1) on both the Silver and CnClad proofs of 1974-S Eisenhower Dollars which has two different appearance. One Strong and as intended and one Weak from either a weak;y punched mintmark or die lapping or a combination of both.

    I can state with relative certainty that both are very difficult to find.
     
  9. Stewart

    Stewart Searcher of the Unique

    Lee,
    Thank you for chiming in on this I had completely forgotten about the MMS-2b and ended up back in the safe yesterday digging out all of the 74 40% proofs and going over them again. A great afternoon, thank you for reminding me. Alas no MMS-2b’s for Terry yet.:too-funny: It will come.

    As far as the Micro “S” situation with the two different versions 40% Silver and Cuni-Clad. I was under the impression that it was a foregone conclusion that the two versions were from the same die. With Brian and John identifying two separate die markers on both versions of the 74 S proofs. The reason for me bringing this thread to the top was to see if anyone had found any more examples. Hoping to check out pictures of more than the few examples I have seen. I was trying to see which came first “The Chicken or The Egg” (The Proof or The Copper-Nickel Clad) that question has been in my head since Brian’s announcement of the discovery of the Copper-Nickel Clad Micro “S”. Then the other day I received a reply from someone that had went back and checked their 74 S Proofs and had found one of the 74 S 40% Proofs that was an Eskimo Boot PegLeg was also a Micro “S”. It will be on its way back to ANACS soon. He will also be photographing it soon also. I can’t wait to see them. My thinking at this point is along the lines of looking at the “R” for clues. Because after die re-treatments the serifs on the “R” will get weaker . My 74 S 40% Micro “S” has just a whisper of the left serif remaining and with the one from the other day being an Eskimo Boot PegLeg. My thinking at this point is the 40% proofs were stuck at the end of the usefulness of the die and after some re-treatments. Accounting for Dr. Wiles finding more common the Copper-Nickel Clad version than the 40% Silver Proof. But then again this is all just theory at this point until the opportunity presents itself to see and compare more examples. I think the theory is sound enough to warrant further investigation.

    One more Eisenhower Dollar question to puzzle over.
    And boy do I seem to pick the off the wall ones.
    That is what I love about Ike’s, new territory to explore. I sure wish I had been there at the very beginning of the discoveries and research of the Morgan and Peace Dollar VAMS. I bet that was some wild and wooly times to be a part of.

    Terry
     
  10. Caleb

    Caleb Active Member

    Question: When were the mint marks punched into the dies during the minting process of proof coins in the 70’s?

    If the branch mint punched the mark on the die before using, I’m not sure how Mr. Wexler or anyone else can say that the same die was used for both clad and 40% silver proofs. The only conclusion that I can draw is that the same mint mark punch may have been used on more then one die.

    Now, if manufacturing marks (die scratches, chips, or anything else) unique to one die can be found on both metal types of the 1974-S Ike dollars, then I could understand the conclusion that the same dies were used to make both types.
    If Mr. Vaile has proof, I hope it is more then just the same punch (mintmark style) being used because that in and by itself really has no baring on whether the same die was used in the production of both clad and silver proof Ike dollars as stated in his statement quoted above.
     
  11. Stewart

    Stewart Searcher of the Unique

    Caleb,
    I agree with you 100% without manufacturing marks (Die Markers) that can directly link one coin and another to the same die.
    Such a thing would be very doubtful as to whether both coins came from the same die.
    Thankfully this is not the case with the 1974 "S" Proof, Micro "S" varieties.
    Brian Vaile in his examinations of these coins knew that he was looking at two different metal composition coins from the same die.
    To confirm this he sent it off to John Wexler for him to examine. and Mr. Wexler agreed with him.
    Mr. Wexler was the one who identified three different die markers matching both of these different metal composition coins to the same die.

    The comment and die marker list below is directly copied from conversation with Brian after I had read about his discovery and checked
    my safe and dug out an example of the Copper-Nickel Clad Micro "S" I had purchased in a 2x2 thinking it may have been a 40% silver version
    but turned out to be Copper-Nickel Clad version.

    Mr. Wexler came up with an "I agree with you 100%" and here are a couple of markers I found that PROVE they came from the same working die.
    Here are the die markers Mr. Wexler came up with to help prove my case:
    1. The first and easiest to find, is a curving die scratch just to the right of center of the ear.
    2. Two small die gouges (dots) that can be found just to the right of the lower horizontal bar of the F in the FG.
    3. A very small die gouge at the intersection of the base of the bust and the field below the base of the bust, directly north of the mint mark.



    Also here is the link to the conversation with Brian and Chuck after I had posted some pictures of the Copper-Nickel Clad example I have.
    (I hope this is not outside forum rules)
    http://ikegroup.org/php3.0.2/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=1260&sid=138c7c0042ee09b3cb48a71695984981


    If the link gets removed look for a thread at the Ike Group web site named:
    1974 S CUNI Clad Micro S Story and Question


    I honestly thought that this variety had been settled with Mr. Wexler's finding of the matching die markers linking both of these coins to the same die. I was just trying to find out which one was minted first the Copper-Nickel Clad Proof or the 40% Silver Proof version.
    (The Chicken or the Egg :too-funny: )
    As I believe we all know. As coin collectors we get certain coins stuck in our head. This one got buried in my head with a backhoe :too-funny:

    Terry
     
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