60 Morgans, Me vs ICG

This has nothing to do with the new activity in the ICG is crap thread. I planned on doing this before that kicked up again.

I just completed a full Morgan set (minus the 93s) and I had 60 of them raw. I recently submitted them to ICG for grading. It’s my 1st grading submission ever. I actually submitted and picked them up in person and everyone was very helpful. I have all the VAMs recorded in my personal notes and did not give that to ICG. They went ahead and labeled some of the cool (top 100) ones without me asking.

My summary:

39 of 60 Within at least 1 grade
4 bumped up 1
26 same
9 bumped down 1

11 of 60 bumped me down 2 grades. 4 of which went from unc to AU.
Don’t really agree with 5.

9 of 60 detailed, which I did not note beforehand. 5 of them I completely disagree with.

1 did not grade due to PVC on reverse.


ICG Bumped up my grade:
1881 P = ICG MS64, Me MS63
1891 O = ICG MS61, Me MS60
1903 P = ICG MS64, Busted out of Anacs MS62 as I thought it was undergraded
1904 S = ICG VF30, Me VF25

ICG Same Grade as me:
1878 7/8TF ICG = MS60 details, Me = Unc Details due to wheel mark (just a breathtaking coin if not for the damn small wheelmark, which is not distracting. Would be 65PL or DMPL)
1878 S = ICG MS65
1879 S, rev 78 = ICG MS60 Details
1880 CC = ICG VF30 details
1881 CC = ICG MS63
1881 O = ICG MS 63, originally busted out of NGC MS63 because I thought it could go PL
1883 S = ICG AU50 details
1885 P = ICG MS64
1885 CC = ICG MS64
1886 S = ICG MS60 details
1888 O = ICG MS64
1891 CC = ICG F12
1892 CC = VF 30 details
1893 P = AU53 details
1893 CC = ICG AG3 details
1893 O = ICG AG3 details
1893 P = ICG AU53 Details
1894 O = ICG VF35 details
1895 S = ICG G4
1897 P = ICG MS65
1899 P = ICG MS60
1900 P = ICG MS64
1901 O = ICG MS64
1901 S = ICG AU50
1903 S = ICG G4 details
1904 P = ICG MS64 (but was really hoping in my heart that this was a 65)

ICG Bumped my Grade down by 1:
1880 P = ICG MS63, Me MS64
1882 S = ICG MS64, Me MS65
1883 CC = ICG MS62, Me MS63
1884 S = ICG AU53, Me AU55
1887 P = ICG MS63, Me MS64
1889 O = ICG MS62, Me MS63
1896 O – ICG EF45, Me AU50
1896 S = ICG VF20, Me VF25
1899 S – ICG AU50, Me AU53

Upgrade or downgrade?
1897 S = ICG MS65, Me MS65PL, cracked out of Anacs MS64PL. The coin in my avatar. I thought it was undergraded. ICG agreed and bumped up 1 grade, but the PL got dropped. PCGS Priceguide on the 65 is $475, on the 64PL is $315. So financially an upgrade I guess. A weird happy and bummed.

ICG Bumped my grade down by more than 2:
1878 CC = ICG MS62, Me MS64. Pretty tough, 64 was definitely too high.
1882 O/S = ICG AU53, cracked out of Anacs AU55 that I thought was AU58
1884 O = ICG MS63, Me MS65. Very tough. I thought this could go PL as well.
1892 O = ICG AU50, Me AU55. Ok.
1892 S = ICG G6, Me F12. Very tough.
1894 S = ICG VG8, Me F15. Super tough.
1895 O = ICG AG3, Me G6. Fine.

ICG Bumped me from UNC to AU
1878 P 7TF, Rev79 ICG AU58, Me MS63. I’ll go with it, but brutal. A spectacular AU58.
1891 S = ICG AU55, Me MS61. Ok, agree.
1892 P = ICG AU58, Me MS61. Ok, agree.
1900 S = ICG AU58, Me MS61 Ok, agree.
All 4 are very, very clean and nice coins.

ICG called it details/cleaned and I didn’t think so beforehand, but agree afterwards:
1882 CC, MS60 cleaned, ooff….. this one hurt. I had it as MS65. I do see one rub on one damn spot, almost looks like a wheel mark.
1887 S, MS60 cleaned, I had it as MS62. agreed
1891 P, AU58 cleaned, I had it as MS62. Fine on a couple of very light hairlines, not certain about the AU. Very tough.
1896 P, MS60 cleaned, I had it as MS63. I think I can see 1 or 2 very, very light hairlines. Super tough.


ICG called it details/cleaned and I didn’t think so beforehand, and disagree afterwards
1878 P 8TF, MS60 Obverse cleaned, I had it as MS64. Noway. I pulled this one on pickup to see it and he couldn’t see it either.
1878 P 7TF, MS60 obverse cleaned, I had it as MS64. Noway. I also pulled this one on pickup and he couldn’t see it either.
1886 P, MS60 reverse rim damage, I had it as MS64. Noway. I never even saw that rim nick it so small.
1890 S, MS60 scratched, I had it as MS63. Tough. I see the nick they must be talking about, but never would have called that a scratch. Probably more of a baggy 62.
1902 O, MS60 cleaned, I had it as MS63. Noway, I can find nothing.

Did not grade:
1898 S for active PVC on reverse. They had permission to conserve any, but didn’t. A very small amount and is already sitting in acetone.

I’ll be happy to post pics if anyone wants to see something. Pretty pleased overall.

 

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So here are the 5 that got detailed that I disagree with:
78P 8tf


78P 7TF


86P reverse rim damage. At 11 o’clock:



90s under ear, on jaw line


02 o

 

I would like to see the details coins, especially the ones that you don't agree with the assigned grade.

Mint State Morgan Dollars are very easy to grade, so it is expected that most grades will be within one grade of expected. Are there any of the two grade down bumps that you disagree with? Maybe the 1884-O? If so, I would like to see them also.

 

posted the detailed ones seconds before your post. 84o

 

As with any PL or almost PL.... that 84 O is hard to quickly take a pic of to see the reflections

 

Those details grades are mystifying!

 

I'm guessing this is a net grade for the disturbance in the left obverse field.

 

Yeah, after taking the pics and looking at them online.... I am thinking the exact same thing.

 

78P 8TF - looks ok, I’d say low MS
78P 7TF - cleaned, I have to agree with ICG
86P rim damage - doesn’t look too bad, but you know, ICG is tougher than PCGS ;-)
90S scratched - I don’t really mind small scratches, maybe you could resubmit it?
02O - doesn’t look too bad either, but they saw the coin in hand and likely got it right

 

Quickly snapped some pics as I ran out this morning of the 78P, rev of 79.... that I thought was BU but they graded as AU58.

Fairly clean of bag marks. I have certainly seen worse MS62s.

I think the luster threw me off. It’s full cartwheel and I cannot see any luster breaks.

I think I went with weak strike in the hair directly above her ear. The right cottonball is probably the key though.

Nothing really stands out on the reverse.

Overall still a beautiful and fun Morgan.

 

I think so, too. Looks like a counting wheel burn.

 

Yeah, it's a weird mark. There are zero hairlines in it. It's not dark, but rather super reflective.

 

It doesn't take much of a cleaning to get a coin into a details holder. On the 78 8TF and 78 7TF, I'm going to guess that there's enough of a wipe to show up as a patch of hairlines that pops if it's tilted just right in the light. The damaged rim on the 86 seems too obscured by the holder to comment on. The 84-O looks to have a nasty wheel mark. The 02-O looks cleaned from the picture -- funny luster/gloss. Not sure which scratch is being cited for on the 90-S. Nose, perhaps? The 78 Rev 79 has the look of an AU coin to me, so the grade seems to match the picture.

 

Thank you for the constructive feedback. Your input is highly admired.

 

Wow, nice collection. Thanks for sharing.

 

I've been thinking of doing the same thing with my raw set - if I ever finish it. I'm 2/3, maybe a smidge more, there! Did they give a decent price for a bulk submission?

 

They list economy pricing at $12 a coin.
@Insider has posted on here they'll do $10 a coin for Cointalk members
I dropped them off and picked them up, so they offered me (without me asking) their $9 show price.

The crazy part is it took exactly 7 days from drop off to pick up.

 

I wish there was a way to easily present everything in one photo. The main reason I wanted them all slabbed was so I can put them all in an album with pages designed to hold slabs. So now I can just flip the pages and smile.

Here is my list.
A black grade background is from one of the 4 TPS.
I have left white several of the ones from above that I disagree with or ones that I have not had graded.
The two in red I have already purchased as replacements for some of the problem coins that ICG found.

 

@bradgator2
A wonderful collection. Very impressive. Thank you for sharing this part of the journey with us.
Mind if I ask how long it took you from start to finish compiling this set?

 

My dad dabbled in coins a little when I was younger and he had a few Morgans. I bought my first Morgan back in grade school (early 80s). I combined his stuff and my stuff roughly 5 years ago. Over the last 5 years, I have put a lot of energy trying to weed out the ones with glaring problems, as well as upgrade some, and condense multiples.

25 of the coins I just submitted were acquired more than 35 years ago.

So, at this point... it's been roughly a 40 year journey. And it's not complete as I have one left. As well as upgrade several of the ones that just came back. I just bought a nice PCGS MS64PL to replace that 84O being discussed earlier.