$5 Gov. of Texas (real or fake)

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by connor1, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    A relative of mine who's father died had this note framed and PASTED !!!! to a cardboard backer.So the first bad news I told her was more then likely a copy and isn't real,but to make sure I'm posting it for a few opinions.
    It is so well glued to the backer I would damage it trying to remove it.
    Has anyone seen these notes & could give me an opinion (Fake or Real)
    Dimensions 7" x 3". Seems small from the obsoletes I seen.

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  3. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    Connor.. have to say that I have not seen one of those before.
    The inks look real (sigs and SN) but I can not say with any certainty..

    Nice looking note..the vignette is one that was used on Obsoletes so I know that exist for sure.

  4. krispy

    krispy krispy

    If this is real and carries a significant value, at one's expense of course, a paper conservator (such as one retained by a museum print and drawing room) maybe able to advise whether or not it would be possible to remove the piece from the cardboard backer and determine whether or not there was any reversible processes to extract any of the acids likely leached to the note from the cardboard backer.

    You may be able to contact someone who does 'archival restoration' specializing in prints and art on paper (unless one of the TPGs can handle this) by posting to the members of the Book Arts Web or at the very least gather further restoration type information from some of the Academics that contribute there.

    Good luck.

    And I love the Sam Houston signature!
  5. krispy

    krispy krispy

    The Bass Foundation site lists the following:

    "281 $5 C-H16. Rarity-7. The Government of Texas. Choice VF, cut canceled. Bright and pleasing. A printing wrinkle is noted at the upper right corner, as made. A vignette of a buffalo hunt is featured at the center. Boldly signed by Sam Houston."

    Check this on Heritage too.
  6. krispy

    krispy krispy

  7. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    Looks just like that note but the dimensions seem small for an obsolete 7" &''x3",most obsoletes are much larger.I'll have to look for size of note to first authenticate
    Thanks for the links Krispy.
  8. Resu Eman

    Resu Eman Member

  9. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER" Supporter

    Can anyone say TPG??
  10. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    Would that be the TPG that cannot recognize the Tallahassee Railroad reprints?

    Or the one that identifies ABN reprints as genuine notes?

    Or the one that does not know the difference between a printers proof and a proprietary proof?

    Or the one that cannot identify the reprints of the 1933 Lodi Depression Scrip?

    Or the one that could not identify a counterfeit $10.00 MPC note even though it had position number 81?

    TPG is not the answer for everything. How about trying to find an expert in Texas notes to examine this one? How many TPGs have experts in Republic of Texas notes?

    With a note like this, you would be better off posting it on the Collectors Universe paper money discussion board ( http://forums.collectors.com/categories.cfm?catid=23&zb=8215354). There is at least one Texas expert and a few obsolete experts on that board.
  11. RickieB

    RickieB Expert Plunger Sniper

    That is pretty good advice if you ask me..
    I agree 100%.
    Obsoletes can be just as tricky and no one better than a Texas Note Expert except for Haxby should be considered.

  12. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    I have Haxby's 4 CDs & they have Texas Obsolete Bank Notes but nothing on Gov. or Rep. of Texas .I'll try collectors Universe. What makes me think they my be counterfeit or old copies is the sise,about the size of a FRN 3'' x 7'' seems very small for a Texas or any obsolete !
    Looks identical even better condition then the linl you sent Krispy...thanks!
    http://www.icollector.com/Houston-TX-Government-of-Texas-5-June-1_i7639316 I sent auctioner an email about size but nothing yet.
    In that auction they said SAm Huston never signed after being shot in the hand.
    Houston, TX- Government of Texas</I> $5 Apr. 1, 1838 Cr. H16 Medlar 59
    Sam Houston had an old wrist wound from military service with Andrew Jackson in the Creek War flare-up, and he was unable to use his right hand. Therefore, the Texas Congress authorized William G. Cooke to sign notes for him. This is a tougher denomination for this issue. Fine,</I> CC.
  13. bobbeth87

    bobbeth87 Coin Collector

    A member of my local coin club (James Bevill) just wrote a book entitled, "The Paper Republic: The Struggle for Money, Credit and Independence in the Republic of Texas" It is all about the paper money from Texas. I could talk to him (next meeting is Feb 8) if you don't have it answered by then. The book info is below:


    Let me know.
  14. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER" Supporter

    Well, If your asking for perfection no one can deliver that!! Not even
    A TPG, But i will take my chances down that road that provides the
    Best chance, For authentication and grade, Iam sure you cant argue that, But i know you will....LOL :pencil:
  15. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    Thanks,my sister in law thinks shr hit the lotto & I keep telling her not to get her hopes up.
    I aappreciate that,here's the image & if you want I'll email it to you.
  16. Dave M

    Dave M Francophiliac

    I may not understand the breadth of access to experts that these TPG's have, but I really don't follow your point here. In this particular example, it seems there is a *known expert on Texas notes* who might be able to authenticate this note. It would seem like an enormous stretch to consider that a TPG has this same expert, or possibly someone even more expert, on staff to authenticate this note, no?

    More generally, if I have access to an expert in any particular narrow area, why would I go to a "general purpose TPG" for an opinion, over that expert?

  17. I don't even think a TPG would grade that considering that it is GLUED to cardboard.

    This month's Paper Money has a large, in depth article on the history of the Texas Republic's paper issues, but I just read it a few hours ago and I don't recall it mentioning the actual physical size of the note.

    I'm still learning the obsoletes myself and don't know enough about them to spot a fake from a scan...and I only HOPE I could spot a fake in person.

    Sorry I can't be of more help.
  18. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER" Supporter

    I was simply pointing out TPG as a good option, Since he was not
    Sure of the authenticity, Do they have an expert on staff at PCGS
    Or PMG, Cant tell you for sure, But iam sure they could find someone
    That knows something about these notes :high5:
  19. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    Thanks, I get Paper Money & it arrived yesterday,I didn't open it till just now,The Heritage pictures on page 73 of the $5 are the same note but no dimensions mentioned ,your right I think no TPG is going to authentic or grade a note that is glued down,so first before wasting any money having it removed I'm going to try to find out the size of the note(printed on one side only) & then tell my sister in law the good or bad news.
    Thanks Again,
  20. connor1

    connor1 Collector

    The problem is it's GLUED !!! down to a card Board Backer & can't be submitted to any TPG's.Is it worth paying to remove a possable fake ?
  21. krispy

    krispy krispy

    You don't suspect it was shellacked or glued over the face of the note like a decoupage piece do you? I think that would be the worst, if the glue was applied over the face. However, if it was only applied to the reverse and the glue didn't penetrate the surface, maybe you'd have a chance at conservation, IF it's authentic and worth$$$ the investment to restore it just to send it off for grading.
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