2000P Nickel Die Clash

What I don't understand is that if this was a die clash, how could the image from one die extend INTO the carved out part of the other die in addition to being on the field. The clashing die would have to bend to do this, or make a far more prominent impression on the field area.

 

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Mike has the definitive answer as he has another coin just like it.

I would have said that it was an incredibly strong die clash so we are all on the same page.

Man, I gotta find one of those! It is awesome! I've never seen another one like it.

Have Fun,
Bill

 

Ok....so I'm learning something new...and that is good...but help me understand this better.

In the past I've seen members young and old say that the way to pick out a hammer job is where the letters are backwards. If now we are saying that the letters are backwards on a real clash what are better pick-up-points for a guy like me on these types of deal.

The one thing that seems different about this coin is that the clash goes UNDER the parts of the struck coin...such as Jeffersons head. If it was hammer job the detail would go overtop of his head.

Oh well---back to my corner to read more and post less I should have known better than to think that I could answer the question

Speedy

 

A hammer job will affect the high points of the coin more than the fields because.. well, they are higher! A hammer job is not trying to duplicate a die clash but rather a flipped double strike which would not be reversed since both strikes would be from the correct die.

 

Speedy
Now don't do that, because if you post less then it would be everyones loss, as I myself have learned alot from some of your past posts.

Dave

 

Ah......so in other words, I was thinking of the wrong type of error that it would normally affect!....now I see

Errors is one area that I'm quite green, and while I've been reading this forum for 5 years, I still can't seem to get some of the stuff Mike and Bill talk abot every day.

Speedy

 

Other then it being out of normal rotation a bit, it looks like a good clash.

 

The clash was so strong that not only was the field affected but also parts of the design that have relatively low relief. My suspicion is that these dies were a little softer than usual and had more than the usual amount of resilience. In other words, the die face actually flexed and deformed, and then bounced back to its original shape. If these dies had the normal hardness they probably would have shattered given the strength of the clash.

 

I don't have an alternative explanation for what caused the effects on this nickel but I do know a bit about metallurgy and I can tell you that a sold chunk of metal (a die) can deform or it can shatter but it can not deform and then "bounce back."

 

If you hit an anvil with a hammer the hammer bounces back up. This indicates some degree of resilience, at least at a microscopic level. If the metal didn't flex at all -- if it was totally rigid -- it would shatter.

Lots of implements composed of tempered steel show resilence -- rip saws, rapiers, leaf springs, shock absorber springs, etc. I don't see why such steel should only show resilience under bending, torsional, or shear stresses. Why not compressional stress as well? Die steel is tempered so it would be expected to show slight resilience.

 

Nice one !!!

 

Using your terminology, the difference between resilience and compressional stresses is that resilience does not change the metal on a molecular level while compression does. As long as the molecular structure has not been broken, the strain between the molecules will bring the item back to its original shape. If, however, as under compression, the molecules are reformed, the molecular stresses are realigned and the metal retains its new shape. A hammer may bounce off of an anvil but if you hit it harder (not hard enough to shatter it) you will deform the point of contact and the mark will remain. [Normally you do not strike an anvil with a hammer, you place something softer on the anvil and strike that with the hammer. However, my anvil has plenty of indentations from accidently being hit with a sledge.]

What happens when dies clash, and their subsequent use to produce coins, is not microscopic in nature, it is macroscopic - measurable by ordinary measuring devices. The die is deformed, the planchet is deformed to make the coin and neither will rebound to their original condition because their molecular structure has been permanently altered.

The above is the simple course. There are specific cases where metals will act differently from how I described. I'll leave it up to you to check out those circumstances, and to see how they don't apply here. Look up Modulus of Elasticity, Poisson's ratio, Lamé's first parameter, and P-wave modulus.

 

First of all, metals do not have a "molecular structure". They only have an atomic structure. There are no "molecules" in steel, only atoms arranged in a crystalline lattice.

Second, resilience is characteristic of a substance and a response to stress and strain. It is not a form of stress. It is simply the ability of a substance to return to original form after being deformed.

Now, if steel always exhibits zero resilience under compression as you claim, why does the hammer of the blacksmith bounce back up? Why doesn't it simply shatter or deform? Is it simply a manifestation of Newton's Third Law -- that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction? I can accept that, I suppose. However, in the case of the nickel, the obverse and reverse face appear to still show a normal amount of peripheral concavity (the dies being convex here). If the dies had been permanently deformed, the outer margin of the field should appear exceptionally flat. Also, the letters of PLURIBUS deformed enough during the clash to penetrate the recess of the die corresponding the the front of Jefferson's coat. Yet in this coin, the letters of PLURIBUS on the reverse are not visibly recessed, as would be the case if the deformation was permanent. Likewise, the front of Jefferson's coat is not visibly recessed. This to me suggests some slight resilience when the clash occurred.

 

See the impression in red from the strong force of the hammer really strong force a clear indication a hammer job

I think Speddys theory is right post mint damage. I don't think it makes sense for two dies to smack down to give that kind of an impression ,had to be mighty strong.
highly unlikely

oh just my opinion had to mention that
Jazzcoins Joe

 

Yet Jazz you fail to explain some other features of this coin which contradict it being a hammer job. I will not repost the photos again, as they are already posted in the thread.
One would be how then if it is a hammer job does the rus of Trust get under UNI of UNITED on the Reverse of the coin? How does the hair line of Jefferson stop at the beginning of letter ES and resume again at the other end without showing on the letters at all? Those are just a couple of examples on the Reverse.
Not sure if you are just trying to be contradictory or not because of every else that has occurred, but if it is the case then you are letting it cloud your judgment.

Dave

 

Also just look at the edge of the photo you posted to point out it was a hammer job. The ends of the W and E of WE are cut off by Monticello and not on top of it as you would see on a hammer job.

Dave

 

There is weakness that occurs in the center of both the obverse and the reverse face. As best as I can tell from studying my own specimen, these areas of weakness represent strike-through errors.

 

Jazzcoins:
Just so you know, on someones recomendation I emailed Fred Weinberg about this coin and sent along photos of it. In the email I informed him that Mike Diamond stated that it was clashed die and that not only did Mike state he had one of the same die set but "It represents the strongest clash ever recorded on a U.S. coin -- or any coin, for that matter"
Mr Weinberg's response in short was "Thanks for your email and nice scans of the Die Clashed Nickel, as Mike said, it's a very very strong piece"
So now I have three people who are considered experts in the field saying that is infact a Die Clashed Nickel.


On a final note, I finally managed to talk my other half into letting me join PCGS, and upon her recommendation (she speaks I listen, she stays happy, then I am happy Kiss ) I am going to send this coin to them after my membership package arrives.

Dave

 

I look forward to seeing it when it comes back. I am confident of the outcome.

Richard

 

Well i wish you lots of luck with it. Well we just have to see the outcome. .
Jazz