$2.5 Indian Gold - What do you think?

This is the first gold Indian coin I have ever bought and I am still learning about these coins. It is supposed to be uncirculated, I will leave that up to you guys. The questions that I have are 1) What is hanging from its neck on the left of the feathers or "tasssels" hanging from the headress. It looks like it is supposed to be loose neck skin but I dont see that on any other examples of this coin? 2) Do you think that this coin is actually uncirculated? I am planning on sending it in to get graded but first wanted to get your opinion. Thanks

 

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Where did you get this coin?

My first concern would be whether the coin is genuine or not. You say this is the first Indian Gold you have bought. Am I to assume you are not super, super familiar with these coins? If so, it may not be the wisest thing for you to buy a raw Indian Gold coin.

Indian Gold is heavily, heavily, heavily counterfeited. I cannot say one way or the other whether your coin is genuine or fake from your photos but you brought up a concern about a design feature on your coin that should not be there. That should be a huge warning flag - especially on a raw Indian $2 1/2. It could be clash marks or it could be a counterfeit.

Post larger photos if you can. Also see if you can get the entire coin in focus. The top of the coin is out of focus in both photos. (You may have the coin tilted. Try shooting the photo straight on.)

And . . .

Lots of times counterfeits lack fine details so what you think may be wear could be missing detail that was never there.

 

I agree with the bald dude....and I will add that the coin does not appear to be uncirculated to my eye. Perhaps uncirculated details, but an uncirculated coin should have luster (i.e. cartwheel under a light), and I see no such luster in the photograph.

 

look great to me

 

HEY!!!! I resemble that remark.

And I agree with the luster remark. But I would be more concerned whether it is genuine or not.

 

I don't see any immediate signs of counterfeiting, I would have to check my books to be more confident though.

That bulge on the neck is from die clashing. This happens when the planchet is hit a little too hard and details from one side show on the other.

You can see from this superimposed version of your pics that it is from the Eagle's shoulder:

 

Did you get the coin from AMPEX?

 

I agree with Hobo. Not only are these rampant counterfeited, they are dang hard to spot too. Partly due to the small size and the incuse design. I bought a $5 indian raw from a dealer once, but it was very reputable (Major coin dealership in vegas before they went sour) and it slabbed as geniune with a higher grade. (They called it AU-55, it graded AU-58, twice, once by ANACS and once by PCGS)

Here's a counterfeit:


Here's a geniune one:


More counterfeits, all struck:

 

Coin can't be uncirculated... Has wear on the eagle's wing, that right there throws it outta the question. It looks to be a high AU, if it is real!
This is your first time buying a gold indian, and yet you buy one raw? The dangers of doing that...
I would never buy one of these raw, ever, it is not worth the risk of possibly buying a counterfeit, or a puttied AU, claiming to be a BU coin, then sending it in, and getting an AU53 instead of a MS62. My suggestion to you would be to do research on these coins, heavily, I wrote a thread on these, that has a little bit of history behind them...
http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t52923/

Grading the quarter eagle

1)Luster – determining luster is very important in grading a quarter eagle, the more the luster, and less wear, the higher the grade
2)Bag marks – These coin usually have many minor marks, and nicks, that lower the grade. A mint state quarter eagle, has bag marks on it, but most are not that easily seen. The determining factor between an AU and BU sometimes, is not how many marks, but the position of the marks, on the coin itself.
3)Rub – this is the most difficult to see on these coins. Look at the Cheek and the Eagles Left wing(right side of coin facing you) near the eagles head. The reverse of this coin is usually struck well, the observe can show some weak areas. In order to see rub on the cheek make sure you tilt the coin and look at it from different angles under magnification, under good lighting.

Grading these coins is always tough, because a lot of the nicks and dings, are barely visible, and you need proper lighting and good magnification, in order to see it
These coins would need to be so well preserved to have a real high grade one, so if you are buying raw, and think you are getting a BU, make sure you do it in person, where you can see the coin before you buy.

Next time, I'd either buy one slabbed, and see what makes a BU coin a BU coin, or do more research on this particular series, before buying one raw again.

 

What would you all say about this place...
https://www.apmex.com/Product/23211/500_Indian_US_Half_Eagles___Almost_Uncirculated_or_Better.aspx

Seems to me, if I did my math right, that you could buy an AU Coin for $361.95 (their choice date) most assuredly a very common date.

A look in the red book says that the most common/lowest priced half eagle in AU50 runs at $385 while one at AU55 runs at $400.

PCGS pricing puts it between $390 and $450 between the grades of AU50,53,55,58.
Which brings me to my point, for a first gold coin buy, shaving slab prices down a little helps to afford it. Would it not be a reputable source?

I mean I would not ever get an entire collection that way... nor could you with them choosing dates. However I just wanted one...

 

You all bring up great points and thanks for all your help. I do know the dangers of buying these coins raw, which is why I wanted to get your opinions before my money back return is up. I also thought the same as far as this coin possibly being circulated (AU), especially with the "wear" on the eagle wing. It doesnt look to be wear though and I am pretty sure that the 1908 coins were pretty soft on the shoulder area and I know that they had to revise the hub in 1909 so the coins from then on will show more detail in this area. I agree on the luster seeming to be non present on this coin, however this can too be deceiving and hard to tell from pics. I have not received the coin yet and have also only seen these pics. In fact, I havent even paid for it yet, which is why I am getting all this feedback first. Yes, I bought it on an auction site, and yes I know the dangers of this. I know that I have bought many coins from this specific dealer and know his reputation and his experience. I still am unsure whether to go through with it though, and as many of you have said, I might want to go with getting a slabbed one until I know more about them. I appreciate all your help!

 

I take it that you are talking about the $5 gold coin, not the $2.5 coin?

 

yes, the $5 one, as I am waiting for it too to arrive unslabbed.

As you are - I too am nervous, but I hedged my bet and am willing to live by its authenticity!:whistle:

They shipped it yesterday... hears the song "anticipation" from the heinz ketchup commercials ringing through my head...

 

I think it is fine, if they actually send you a good AU, and not some piece of crap, that is cleaned, and has putty added to it
Which is all the reason more to buy them slabbed, and see the coin before you buy, OR make sure it has a return policy. Remember slabs aren't the answer to everything, as coins with putty can slip past them sometimes.

 

.......i think it's wise to buy from a reputable dealer. i look for organizations that they may belong to such as the ANA, PNG, PCGS, and NGC for example. they police their members that belong to their organizations and this carries a lot of weight and helps keep them on the up and up. jmo.


steve

 

As others have said, the Indian gold pieces are heavily counterfeited. (Really really really heavily counterfeited). There also does not appear to be any luster on the fields so I suspect it may be circulated. Do not look for wear in the design, look on the fields. Check for circulation evidence on the fields. For me, the 2.50 & 5.00 Indians are the most difficult coins for grading & counterfeit detection is a must. Some struck counterfeits share the same reverse.

What is the seller's return policy?

I recommend sending it to a TPG.

Very best regards,
collect89

 

I have a 7 day return policy so I dont know if it would give me enough time to send it in for grading or verifying. Maybe I should just cancel the order.

 

Sorry, when I read "What is hanging from its neck on the left of the feathers or "tasssels" hanging from the headress. It looks like it is supposed to be loose neck skin but I dont see that on any other examples of this coin?", I assumed he meant those buldges to the left of the tassel which would be a result of the die clash, that is also something you don't see on the majority of these which would explain his question.

Oh and my superimposed image is off a little, I think that point you pointed to could be a clash from the beak of the eagle.

 

Crusty, that is exactly what I was talking about, but GDJMSP also brings up a good point about the other little mark that, as you said, could be part of the beak. Do you think you could move that superimposed image down to where the beak would meet up with it and see if it would line up with the other thing that seems to be hanging from the neck. If you could post it on here again I would greatly appreciate it. How did you do that by the way. Thanks again