1964 Special Mint Set SMS

According to the NGC population report there are 553 with MS68 grades. There are also 39 MS68* and 5 graded MS69.

 

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Thank you fo taking the time to look up the stats. So there are 5 graded 69. The Star is for eye appeal so a coin with only 592 graded MS68 is pretty rare.

 

You're generous in your assessment.

The SMS Kennedy's are SUPER EXPENSIVE and only those with 15 to 20 grand laying around gathering dust can even afford to shop for them.

 

Like I said, I got lucky getting the 1965 SMS in MS68 for only $154, if the Seller had listed it correctly, instead of as 1968 SMS, which doesn't even exist, the price would have been much higher. I have the 1966 SMS in MS67 and the 1967 SMS in MS67 Cameo. Getting a Cameo prior to the middle 1970's is tough to do.

I have the 1964 Kennedy in PR69 Cameo, I haven't been able to find one in PR69 DCam. If I do I'll be tied for first place in PCGS's Registry Set for Proof Silver Kennedy Halfs. I have the Kennedys from 1992 to 2016 in PR70 DCAM. They don't count the SMS Kennedys because they're only 40% silver.

 

Ya know Doug, I have a hard time believing that the 1964 SMS coins were trial strikes for the 1965-1967 SMS Sets since not ONE of them has a Cameo or even close to a CAMEO finish. I'd also discount that the same dies were used for the 1965-1967 for the above reason.

Every one of the 1964 SMS coins has a satin finish with bunches and bunches of die polish lines in the fields. If ANYTHING at all, the 1964 SMS sets were put together to show the mint director what a "Special Set" might look like since they weren't going to produce any proof sets but wanted to produce something for the collectors.

Unbeknownst to many, the US Mint had been preparing "special dies for special coins" to be sent to the Smithsonian for inclusion in the National Numismatic Collection (NNC) since 1958. This continues until 1979. These coins were uncharacteristically high grade for typical uncirculated examples and were obviously produced with special dies which gave the coins a satin type finish.
The August 5, 2013 edition of Coin World details the discovery.

Based upon that story, I'm more inclined to think that the 1964 SMS Sets were produced using the same techniques for possible SMS sets in the future. Since none of the 1965-1967 SMS Sets have anythiong even close to what the 1064 SMS coins look like, I'm thinking that the idea was canned and they simply opted for semi-proof die preparation with higher tonnage single strike presses.

Charles Morgan, a noted numismatic journalist that writes for CoinWeek, was visiting the Smithsonian and was able to view some of the IKE Dollars which had been produced with this special process. He firmly believed that the coins were MS68 or higher even though the journalists/researchers that made the discovery arranged to have some good examples sent to NGC for grading. None of the IKE graded higher than SP67 and only a scant few of the other coins hit the SP68 mark.

BUT, the coins DO have a marked difference from what we normally see from the production presses.

The mystery surrounding the 1964 SMS Sets will never be solved and only speculative stories exist. But one thing is absolutely certain, the 1964 SMS coins bear absolutely no resemblance to the SMS coins of 1965-1967.

 

Myself, and many others call them "special strikes", not SMS. NGC designates them as SP, not SMS. If only PCGS would be so kind as to change their designation to SP, much confusion and controversy would be eliminated. These coins were carefully struck from unique dies, not allowed to clash with other coins, and never put into production. They are "experimental or presentation pieces" and not at all related to 1965-67 SMS coins, or 1964 circulation strikes, or proofs. If I were to compare them to any other modern SP, it would be the 2000 P Goodacre presentation Sacagawea dollar coin.

 

I
d not refer to them as "Trial Strikes" since the trials actually began in 1958 but "Special Strike w/special handling" would work.

The only reason I mention it is due to the IKE Dollar a found in Feb 2008 which had the exact same finish as what is represented by the 1964 coins AND the coins in the Smithsonian.

The assumption is that it's one of the Prototype Strikes which occurred during the development of the IKE Dollar designs but all those coins were supposedly destroyed. Certainly not at the time of the striking but at some point under Treasury Department observation.

I would find it very interesting to actually examine the NNC coins first hand with the specific intention of comparing them to the 1964 SMS coins. If similarities or even exact die characteristics were found on both then that would answer a lot of questions. BUT, as far as I know, the coins from the NNC that were graded by NGC do not have publicly available photographs.







Extreme close ups are available at:

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/509322

 

The 1971-S Eisenhower SP65+ strike reminds me of the special strike for the Kennedy Half Dollar in the Kennedy Brothers set of 1998.

 

It depends on the demand. I collect Early Date Large Cent varieties and RARE there ends at 200 and after that is considered scarce and then not so common and finally common.

I don't pay a premium unless there are less than 50 known of a particular variety.

But I know nothing about rarity in high grade moderns, though more people are likely to collect them.

 

Might as well throw in the 94-P and 97-P Jefferson SPs with this group of coins. By the way...what's the metal composition of the 71-S Ike prototype? I would assume silver, but it's not mentioned in the PCGS authentication. Comparing the 64 SP Kennedy with these others is like peas and carrots...they're not even a close match. The 64 Kennedy SP has obvious polishing lines all over it as if it were only halfway finished...the other later dates are a more perfect production method. Even the Ike dollar is a nicer strike compared to the 64 SPs. I think the 64 SP coins are in a class by themselves compared to other SP strikes.

 

You mis-spoke. In early copper RARE ends at 75 (R-5 31 -75 known), scarce ends at 200 (R-4 76-200 estimated).

 

SO, to add to the confusion, or eliminate it once and for all, Should they be referred to as " Trial Strikes"? all these other SP coins are "Special Strikes", and the 64 SP Kennedys should be called " Specimen Strikes" to go along with the SP designation that NGC already uses. Maybe we should vote on a proper designation, but surely not "SMS".

 

I'm not sure why the mint used 1964 dies if they were trials for the eventual SMS sets as they could have just used 1965 dated dies for trials with all the 1965 SMS coins actually being struck in 1966. Although I guess because the mint was busy striking 1964 dated coinage into 1967 could be the reason why. I also wonder where the actual 64' Strikes were minted? Did they get struck in San Francisco like all the rest of the SMS coins that followed as trials for that or were they struck in Philly? Or perhaps we'll never know where they were actually minted?

 

Back to the special strikes for the NNC.

When these coins were found, there is no indication that the were actually in sets unless someone can provide that specific pictorial or editorial information.
Is it NOT possible, that these were a part of the special strikes created for the NNC which were left overs?

And WHY were they supposedly in Eva Adams estate?

With no "specific" record of them being minted, and I seriously doubt that the special strikes minted for the NNC had any specific documentation since they were only discovered recently, is there more conjecture related to these coins than what actually exists?

Not proof, not standard business strikes, definitely special handling involved with each coin AND it is a KNOWN fact that the US Mint produced special strikes specifically for the NNC.

At the very least, the coin could be considered illegal but then, the legality of certain issues has always been questionable all the way from the 1913 Liberty Nickels up to and including Presidential Dollar errors which we know were stolen by a Security Guard and sold to Error Coin Dealers (but which ones).

I'm just not willing to jump onto the 1964 SMS Sets speculation given recent results in numismatic investigations.

As it stands, these are being successfully marketed and promoted at SMS coins and it is extremely difficult to swim upstream.

PS-I almost forgot to mention that the PCGS Population reports, if in fact sets were manufactured, shows 29 Washington Quarters as SMS coins but only 13 Kennedy's. You;d think that if there were "sets" made, that the pops would be closer given the current value of the coins.

 

I totally agree with all items mentioned here...the more the questions asked, the more the mystery evolves. I personally doubt that these 64 SMS strikes had anything to do with 65-67 SMS set. As mentioned, differences in composition, dates, textures, and use of the 64 type 1 rev. dies, all indicate some other purpose for these rather than for SMS trial strikes. Maybe these were actually presented to Mrs. Kennedy for her approval, which makes a lot more sense to me.

 

I don't claim to know everything about the 1964 and the 1965 to 1967 SMS sets, BUT... As far as I can determne, the 1965-67 SMS were made with regular dies, they just increased the press tonage to give a stronger strike. If that is the case, why would they have to "test" the SMS coins in 1964?

Keep in mind the 1964 Proof Sets were made in the Philadelphia mint, and three years later they resumed at the San Fransisco Mint. When they were resumed in 1968 the Mint stoped using the soft Proof Set holders and switched over to the hard plastic ones. It took them three years to make the changeover, maybe they were doing experimentation with how to make proofs and how to house the sets during that three year period. Up until approximately 1971 a cameo proof was made by dipping the dies in a solution of 5% nitric acid-95% alcohol. That didn't give many cameos that's why they switched over to sandblasting the die to get the cameo effect.

IMHO I thing the SMS, Patern, SP or whatever you want to call the 1964 experimental sets were just the mint taking the opportunity to see if they could make a better Proof Set.

Another theory is
A small number of 1964 coins received a special finish, maybe as an experiment in preparation for the Special Mint Sets that were to be produced the next year. The finish on these coins appears to be something just shy of the Special Mint Set finish, but also something that is vastly different and superior to the finish seen on regular issue coins. To date, all five denominations have been found with this special finish and from one to two dozen examples are known of each. Some of the Proof 1964 Nickels show a diagonal break connecting the top of Monticello's dome with the S of PLURIBUS on the reverse - these are known as the "Flagpole" variety.

Some Proof 1964 Dimes show a doubled die on the reverse. Check for the doubling on "UNITED STATES" and "ONE DIME". Some Proof 1964 Half Dollars are found with what is known as "Accented Hair", where the hair on Kennedy's head is more heavily defined.

 

This is my thoughts on it that they were test strikes for when the mint was working out the SMS details. As San Francisco hadn't minted any coins since 1955 until being refitted in 1964 in order to help with coinage production. Being closed for almost a decade they probably had to obtain and train new employees on coinage production methods. And since we know for a fact all 65-67 SMS coins were minted in San Francisco despite the lack of mintmark. I think it would make sense that sometime before that if they had struck test pieces to practice or determine feasibility of producing the SMS coins and those pieces were sent to mint director for review.