1960 D Penny oddity

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Carlw89, Jan 13, 2021.

  1. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    No need to defend yourself. Always question what you don't understand. That's a good thing.:cool:
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  3. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Here they are side by side. I’m curious, how do they look to you now? Do they look like the same thing caused them?

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  4. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    Mountain Man said:
    Welcome to CT Carl. That is definitely an misaligned die strike, odd coin and no matter what caused it, I would put it in a 2x2 and keep it. Good luck.
    Not sure what happened here. I never said it was a misaligned die strike, I said,
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  5. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    Thanks. Actually, no. I'm trying to wrap my mind around how the displaced metal ended up in the center of the "0"...instead of pushed over like your 1970 cent.

    The best explanation I've heard so far is from @Oldhoopster who suggested that a vertical hit came down across the "0" causing the metal to rise. Then later, with wear, smooth out to appear as part of the digit.

    That works for me (for now), unless someone has a better explanation. I really appreciate everyone's help. I apologize if I offended anyone...never my intention. :bag:
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
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  6. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I hear you. But I think you’re throwing in the towel too early. This is why I say. If that area on the 0 were pushed over as was the 7, that metal had to dig out of that void. I know that’s your theory, but look at it. There’s nothing dug out there.

    I’ll tell you, better pictures will cinch this. We’re 4 pages without a consensus, and this is solvable.
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  7. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    I've scoured the internet, but can't find anything like it. I'm pretty much along for the ride at this point.
  8. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    I'm still not sure why a die gouge isn't a consideration. That's the first thing that came to mind when I saw the OP's coin. It blew my mind when Mr. Weinberg said it was PMD. The cognitive dissonance is overwhelming!
  9. Martha Lynn

    Martha Lynn Well-Known Member

    I would like to see some one make a video of how to take a 1960 lmc, a vise, and their choice of metal working tools, and with One single action with any of those tools and leave the 0 looking like that. Amazing to see that coin. A one in a billion shot that was . The king of pmd .
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  10. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    This thread's summary "as I understand it"...

    The theory put forth by @FredWeinberg (as explained by @Oldhoopster) is that someone intentionally sliced the "0" digit very precisely (so no metal outside of the digit is affected)...creating a groove with raised metal on either side. Over time the raised metal smooths and blends together to appear as a part of the digit.

    Many examples of this type of PMD/Graffiti in the fields has been presented in this thread, but those were large cuts in the field; none as small and precise as the OP's coin. It's an explanation that must be considered...especially considering the source.

    Another explanation put forth is that a rolling machine unintentionally created Post Mint Damage (PMD). In the examples presented, the last digit of the date is "pushed" out of position. However, all the examples presented don't look anything like the OP's coin and it's hard to understand how metal could be pushed "inside" of a digit without disturbing the perimeter of the digit.

    The third explanation is of a Mint worker (intentionally or not) damaging the digit on the die itself. The die (and struck planchets) likely destroyed upon discovery...with this one slipping through the cracks.

    I recently created a thread of the 1952 Washington Quarter proof "Super Bird" variety where it's surmised that a Mint worker intentionally added an "S" to the Eagle's breast feathers...as a nod to the popular 1952 TV series..."Superman" (silly Mint workers...they do this stuff!).

    Please correct me if I misunderstood/misstated anything. I found a few 1960 and 1970 cents and am trying to reconstruct Mr. Weinberg's scenario. It should be repeatable, right? So far, I haven't come close to the precision required to create the OPs coin.

    Why is this discussion important? ...because it's the difference between a Mint Error and PMD.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2021
  11. AmishJedi

    AmishJedi Well-Known Member

    OMG...let's make a list of things wrong with not only this thread, but particularly your (and your loyal devotees) arguments:

    1) The OP only listed ONE picture of said coin - not even a full obverse/reverse picture, but one, grainy, zoomed image of the date.
    2) Have you (or anyone) examined this coin in person? Didn't think so. And before you respond like a child with "Mr. Weinberg didn't examine the coin either!!!" - stop embarrassing yourself and trying to equate your limited knowledge with his.
    3) Is this image even real - or altered via Photoshop? You don't know. Do you? Nor do I.
    4) You are suggesting (or rather daring) someone to try and recreate 61+ years of handling, coin counter, vending machine, pocket change type of wear, erosion, and abuse in one sitting - therefore, if someone cannot recreate said PMD coin, that their argument is invalid. You can't accurately repeat 6 decades of wear & tear in 1 day - not possible.
    5) Copper is easily manipulated - that date could've been damaged in 1965 and then had 50+ years of handling in order to polish it smooth/flat. If this was an MS65 coin, I might actually tend to be in your corner on this one.
    6) You can't find an exact picture of said PMD, so therefore it couldn't possibly exist? 588 million of these were minted - you would think that if this was a true Mint Error, someone else (other than the OP) would've noticed it. It is kind of a striking PMD, especially since collectors are already scouring these for large vs. small dates. Unless, it is truly a "one-of-a-kind" mint error. Nope.
    7) I have news for you - NOBODY knows for sure (w/100% certainty) what happened to this coin over the past 60+ years. Nobody. Not even Mr. Weinberg - but Mr. Weinberg is 100% certain it didn't happen at the Mint, and I tend to believe him as an error coin and numismatic expert.
    8) Really interested in this coin?

    I edited the wager out as the forum does not wish to be an unintentional "midman". We already have several repeating threads with members accusing other member for not completing monetary agreements and this is similar. Not accusing anyone of possible dishonesty, it is just not allowed. Jim

    Or, continue on in your obsessive quest. Let me know when you have the coin, and we can trade address information. Best of luck.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2021
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  12. Fred Weinberg

    Fred Weinberg Well-Known Member

    No one owes me an apology.

    As Bill Fivaz has said numerous times:

    "I wasn't there when it was damaged, so
    I can't tell you EXACTLY how it happened"

    I didn't say how the O was damaged/altered;
    I just said I was certain it was not a die variety
    or error coin. I am certain it's damage.

    If the owner believes he's correct, and that it is
    an error/variety, he's entitled to that belief.

    If the owner doesn't believe what I say, that's fine
    too - We all try to help here on this site.
  13. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    Thanks for your kind understanding! I wasn't doubting you. I'm sure there are clues that lead you to the correct conclusion.

    I have a hard time trusting an event I can't visualize. For instance, this is the first I've heard of coin rolling machines pushing digits out of place...but now that I've heard the explanation, I can certainly understand it.

    I still don't understand the OPs coin well enough to explain how it happened and I think that is what the OP was asking. It certainly piqued my interest.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  14. Fred Weinberg

    Fred Weinberg Well-Known Member

    It's kinda like the numerous 'road rash' coins
    posted here.

    They are probably damaged from being on
    a pavement or blacktop surface, and run over
    numerous times by a car or two or three.

    Don't ask me the model of the car, the type
    of tires, or the poundage of air pressure.

    I wasn't there, and I don't know those answers,
    but that doesn't mean I can't state with certainty
    that something, probably a car or truck, has rolled over the coin..................
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  15. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    This is the cognitive dissonance..."road rash" coins I've seen are generally beat up everywhere. It would be nice if @Carlw89 could post full pictures of both the Obverse and Reverse.

    The argument seems to be..."It's impossible to be a die error, therefore it's PMD and the type of PMD is irrelevant.". Am I understanding you correctly? I agree, if this is PMD, it really doesn't matter how it happened.

    If that's the case, I wish someone could explain why this can't possibly be the result of a die gouge. I'm not saying it is...there's something going on outside the perimeter between 12:00 and 2:00 that I can't explain, either.

    Here's why a contact mark seems farfetched. The theory is that a contact mark raised the metal and it later smoothed to look like part of the device. OK...but how can a cut deep enough to raise metal not cut into the metal outside of the device? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems about as likely as hitting the PowerBall.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
  16. Fred Weinberg

    Fred Weinberg Well-Known Member

    The 'road rash' wording was not a comparison of
    your coin.

    It was simply an example of "I don't know the make,
    model, or tire size that damaged that coin' -
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  17. yakpoo

    yakpoo Member

    I certainly appreciate your patience. :) (I wish it was my coin!)

    A while back, I found a red Unc 1952-S cent with the vertical line of the "5" extending straight down...even with the center of the lower loop. That seemed like a similar error and I always thought of it as a die gouge. God only knows where I put it. I tried to find more, but Unc rolls of 1952-S seem to be unusually expensive!
  18. Martha Lynn

    Martha Lynn Well-Known Member

    Take a hike edited ..MARTHA
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2021
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  19. AmishJedi

    AmishJedi Well-Known Member

    Classy. And so mature. I don’t know exactly what your problem is, but I suppose that it is something very hard to pronounce. Sometimes, I wish stupidity was painful.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2021
  20. Martha Lynn

    Martha Lynn Well-Known Member

    Wasn't going for classy, but for accuracy. Nailed it too !
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  21. AmishJedi

    AmishJedi Well-Known Member

    I'm praying for you - I hope you find peace and happiness. God bless you and your family heading into this New Year. Thanks for playing.
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