1958 Franklin Half Dollar PCGS MS67+ FB CAC sells for $110k at auction

Actually, the owner paid $129,250 for the coin after the BP. Is THAT enough $$

 

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Well it has to be a 67+ as it was CACed by Sperber

 

I don't see it as mis information. I have been around long enough in this slabbed world to see coins being grossly over graded. It is the resubmission game that drives me nuts. The folks that do this don't want that coin for their personal collection. They want it graded higher so they can resale it for a bigger profit. Find that dummy out there who doesn't know how to grade to buy it.

I personally don't play the game, as many of you have heard or read in the past. I buy for my own collection. I do not buy and sell, and haven't had the need to get any TPG's approval. Most of my coins are raw, and won't hit the market for a long time.

This thread is about a coin that can positively be put into a MS66 slab in the past. It then was considered over graded and not sold for the ridiculous amount that it received recently. I will say it again the coin the coin got the attention it did because it was a top pop coin.

If that doesn't at least tell you that market grading has loosened the standards then I don't know what will. Take off on that band wagon it's your right. But not for me.

 

I don't know if it will ever happen or not but it would be interesting to be alive at the moment coin collectors reject TPGs for [insert whatever replaces them]. I imagine the next step will be some form of computerized grading such that re-submissions only ever have a chance of lowering the grade.

Or perhaps the Chinese will come up with enough forgeries that most people simply throw their hands up and start collecting Pokémon cards (1).








NOTES
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1: Fun fact: My daughter actually identifies counterfeit Pokémon cards. She has several.

 

That is more than enough $ to buy (or even put 50% down on) a home, condo, or townhouse in a great many non-inflated "real world" places in the USA.

It wouldn't even be a 10% down-payment in the inflated (bubble!) markets of CA and NYC. In the rest of the country, this would go a long way.

 

I have thought for a long time that @baseball21 is some sort of PCGS agent. The vast majority of his posts are proselytizing or defending PCGS' products. An odd juxtaposition to his self-proclaimed "humility"...

When there is no "true" grade (only opinions), then by extension:

PCGS is not infallible in their opinions.
CAC is not infallible in their opinions.

These are facts. I know, "facts" have become a fluid idea for some, but that doesn't mean facts have ceased to exist.

 

The color is why it sold for what it did not the grade. The right color is very much in vogue and there are collectors that have shown a willingness to pay what they have to when the right pieces come up. We've seen it with Morgans, we've seen it with the Oregon commem, and we've now seen it with a franklin. I'm sure there are more examples but the people seriously perusing the right color patterns didn't start with this coin.

It's been done before and it failed and the market rejected it. PCGS does have an AI system they use in conjunction with the graders to aid in counterfeit detection but computer graded gets brought up about as much as a 100 point scale. Eye appeal is a big part of grading and a return to technical computer grading is not what the market or most collectors want nor has pure technical grading been a thing used by most for decades now.

The one place I think we could possibly see computer grading would be like ASEs and the silver proof sets for the 70 type grading, but other than that I don't see human grading going away.

Nope don't work for them in anyway and never have as I have told you for years now, but glad to see you still have the grudge from being corrected year's ago. It's rather amusing at this point, but I won't engage your trolling anymore other than to mention that I have never worked for PCGS in anyway.

 

Which then begs the question why you continue to do their "bidding" and defend them tooth and nail (as if they are somehow magically always correct).

You may wish to consult a dictionary as to the definitions of "humility" and "fact".

Cheers.

 

I'm pretty sure that baseball21 would admit that PCGS makes mistakes from time to time. I'm pretty sure PCGS would admit that. This thread was in reference to a particular coin and I think baseball21 is arguing that PCGS didn't make a mistake on that coin. (1)

I hope CoinTalk is a place where a person can make arguments for any kind of grading scale (or company). In fact, I think this whole thread could go from a low key flame war to really informative if people cited actual grading standards (technical vs. market) and argued those standards.

This coin only represents the issue; however, the real issue is the collision of grading standards.

Post the official PCGS grading standard for MS66 and MS67.
Post the traditional standard for MS66 and MS67.

Then compare - that would be informative.



NOTES
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1: I'm only defending baseball21 because he offered to put me on the 'inside track' with PCGS. Members of the 'inside track' get a free 1-2 pt. upgrade on every coin they submit and free admission to the lap dance booth at every coin show.

 

Did you mean collision or collusion?

 

I'd like to repeat I'm not a critic of the PCGS cartel, that is, not ever since the letter. Back about 2 yrs. ago I sent them a letter of criticism but I put the return address as my neighbor just down the block - I'm paranoid that way. Good thing, because about three days later this happened:



Maybe Baseball21 isn't working for them.
Maybe he's just afraid.

 

Absolutely, they have admitted that as well.

The problem is that there are some that run around to various forums trying to trash PCGS more than any other grading company as well as the know it alls who think they're experts but aren't even close.

As mentioned though in this case it's PCGS and CAC. Then it is also Legend who is very picky ect. Multiple actual real experts saw this one but posters saw a picture so they clearly must know better . This is what I was referring to for humility earlier in the tread. Humility is realizing you don't know everything and better graders exist in the world, this is something many posters lack especially the ones who think they know better from a picture.

You newer guys are getting mislead from some of these "forum experts" and at best they're teaching outdated standards and bad hobbits. When I push back on that some of them just resort to name calling like calling me a schill or drinking the koolaid ect. In some cases they have a financial incentive to do so, other times it's their ego or a grudge ect. It is what it is so I generally ignore it and have pulled back from forums a lot and probably will entirely at some point soon as I find threads like this disgusting which is the only reason I chimed in in the first place.

 

Your post was fine.... sorry it has been reduced to this funny typo.

 

Lol autocorrect oh well.

 

Honestly, I feel the grade is justified. The one problem is that none of us have seen the coin in hand and decided whether we feel it's accurately graded or not. Grading from a photo is very different than grading from in hand. Images can accentuate small dings and marks barely visible in hand.

I feel @baseball21 has the right idea here.

 

No

 

I did not say a house that 'someone' could live in comfortably could not be purchased for the amt spent on the coin. I said

I believe there is a distinct difference.

Someone paying that amount generally is not going to be purchasing a smaller home that can go for that. Unless the buyer is someone like Warren Buffett, who lives in the home he bought in 1958 and even then he bought the Omaha, NE house for $31,500 in 1958 or about $250,000 in today's dollars. It's now worth an estimated $652,619.

 

Now I think I get what you're saying: the person who spent the $129k on the Franklin wouldn't consider a house for anywhere near that low of an amount (they would be spending much more on a house). Then I agree with your point.

 

I have had no doubt felt the same way! I was actually thinking on this same topic today. When the day was over, I found that he excels in battle, he either plays the opinion of the advocate? Or, he just plays to their defense. PCGS is his best topic.

I certainly would like to here why he has there defense. Not sure if I have ever seen any of his coins, actually I could care less about his credentials,
It's fun to Bikker with him!