1933 Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle Graded MS65 (no holder !)

If 10 coins were taken from the Philly Mint, I'd expect there to be a shortfall of 10 ounces of gold.

The gold books balanced.

The coins were EXCHANGED by someone at the Mint, a common practice by regular Mint employees and higher-ups.

 

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The Treasury Export License was granted because they had ASSUMED -- incorrectly -- that 1933 Saints had been released.

Therefore, the only question was if the coin had numismatic value to collectors to be allowed to be sent overseas as an exception to FDR's 1933/34 Executive Orders and govenrment regulations on gold holdings. Nellie Ross (Philly Mint higher-up) checked with some numismatists who said "Yeah, it's a coin with collector/numismatic value" and they let Farouk's representative take delivery of the coin.

When the government realized that they had never been officially released -- as in, the public got coins from the Philly Mint Cashier -- they tried to yank the license and coin, but it was too late.

 

That is irrelevant. Not all gold is equal.

 

Those coins were stolen from the mint.

 

So you admit then that some Mint employee or higher up stole the coin.

 

Exchanges of older dates and mintmarks for new releases was common practice at the Philly Mint.

If the market value for 1933 Saints wasn't ~ $800 in the 1940's, the Feds don't give a darn. Plus they didn't like these people dealing in the coins in the first place (gold traders, etc.).

 

One more thing.....Mint and Treasury officials were certainly aware that 1933 Saints were sold in the 1930's. They saw the advertisements in journals like The Numismatist.

Nobody objected, said anything was amiss.

Asst. Director Leland Howard (see pic below) -- who some of our older veterans here or ATS may have had dealings with in the 1960's -- unilaterally decided their release was illegal and called them "stolen". Howard's predecessor, Mary O'Reilly, was never asked about why she had not gone after the 1933 Double Eagles that were openly sold and why she never said they were stolen.

Howard assumed there had been an actual theft -- like the one involving 250 1928 Double Eagles, which really were stolen. That's $5,000 missing -- not exchanged.

We also know that not all records are complete because the 1933 Indian Head $10 Eagles only have about 5 recorded in the ledgers -- but 35-40 are outstanding.

 

It was prohibited in this case and it was a MAJOR policy decision and everyone knew about it. Aside from that, it was theft. This was not a new release that was legal purchased for a coin of equal face value. This was theft. And btw, not "exchanges" but purchases. They, when allowed to, brought coins of equal face value from the mint.

 

No it doesn't. What it says is that the Government was slow to relize that it was robbed. That doesn't change the fact that they were robbed and the coins were 100% stolen goods. Once they discovered they were robbed, they proceded accordingly.

 

No they were both thefts. And it is not funny. If you can't understand what theft is, then we are at an impass. These coins were illegally removed from the mints property, and the replacement with inferior gold coins just makes it more of a scandel, not less so, as it covered up the theft.

 

Nope, Mint officials often were allowed to swap older Saints for newer ones to sell to Philly or NYC collectors. Had been going on for a decade or more.

The 1933 Saint had a face value of $20. If another Saint was exchanged for it, there is no theft based on market values.

Suppose a Philly Mint employee had been told he/she could swap into some 1933's at any time, so long as the coins still existed (i.e., hadn't been melted yet) ? What if they didn't have the money or coins in 1933 but said to hold the 1933's for down the line ? Something like that.

Of course, the coins also could have come from the Cashier who had 1932's mixed with 1933's. It's also possible (likely) that Israel Switt got a Mint employee to swap coins in 1933 or as late as 1937 (most likely).

My point remains: this was not a "theft" like the bag of 1928 Double Eagles.

 

Wrong, it is theft. The coin was owned by the mint and prohibited from being exchanged. There is no other facts of importance. Aside from that, the illegal coin had NO FACE VALUE. It was demonetized. But that is besides the fact.

 

What is an "inferior" coin ? They are both 1 ounce gold coins with a face value of $20.

Just because the coin had great value in the numismatic hobby doesn't mean there's a theft. And it certainly doesn't mean the coins weren't equal since FDR and the U.S. government were not concerned with years or mintmarks, only ounces of bullion.

When Charles Barber helped himself to 6 Ultra High Relief MCMVII Saints....did he put them out to bid for the public or other Mint employees....or did he help himself ?

 

It's not clear it was prohibited from being exchanged, that's the point.

And we don't know WHEN the exchange took place, since it could have happened as early as March 4th, 1933 BEFORE FDR even took office.

 

If doesn't matter WHO performed the theft. It was still theft.

 

Yes - it was CLEAR. It was FLATLY clear and reported in national news services across the US that the gold standard was ended and the gold coins removed from national coinage. It was also 100% clear that the mint was not to distribute the 1933 coins, which is why they were so hotly pursued by collectors. Nobody was ignorant of the facts.

 

If the Cashier had the coins, they were available to the public.

 

It doesn't matter WHEN the theft took place. When it took place then it was theft.

 

No - the coins were designated for destruction and not permited to be purchased at any value or cost. The minute they left the Mint they were stolen property. The details of how that happened are irrelvant and the idea that it was an accident is frankly laughable.

You do relize this was a major campaign promise by Roosevelt and EVERYONE in the US knew about it.

 

But not those with numismatic or sentimental value.

That wasn't clear at the time -- in fact, the Mint struck 1933 Saints up to May because the expectation was that they might be used in international trade or released to the public down the line.

Clearly, they didn't strike 1933 Saints for 2 more months with the knowledge they'd all be melted down down the line.