1921 Morgan. What grade?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by sakata, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    I have never bought many Morgans and really don't know how to grade them. I got this one in the mail a couple of days ago and according to Photograde it looks like it may be MS63. But I am no expert and so thought I would ask for opinions here. I have larger images if need be. If I am wrong I would love to learn why.

    EDIT: I added a 1887 which I purchased at the same time. How about that one?


    SHUSA270.jpg SHUSA269.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  3. HawkeEye

    HawkeEye 1881-O VAMmer

    It is always a little difficult to tell without the coin in hand, but I would not argue with either MS63 or MS64 for the 1887. Also, your 1887 is clashed at the top of the Eagle's right wing and slightly to the outside of the left wing. If these terms are foreign to you please look at www.vamworld.com for some explanation.

    The 1921 series is an animal all its own and someone who deals with them needs to answer. It does not look quite as good as the 1887 to me, but just dealing with pix is tough.
     
  4. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    You are correct. I have not idea what those terms mean. VAM is a mystery to me. I went to that page and type into the search box "what is a clash" and found nothing. As I said, I am not a serious collector of Morgans.
     
  5. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    The '21 looks like a 62/63 but the luster is sorta meh, so its kinda hard to tell if thats rub or wear.
    That 1887 is unique, as in if you havent noticed there is what appears to be a strike thru on the neck and under the chin and possibly below states on the reverse. Looks like grease maybe or debris caused this, i would of snatched that up in a heartbeat. On ebay in an unc holder that coin might go for a decent amount over what u paid including slab fees.
     
  6. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    Well here is another 1877 I have. I did not post it early because it has a small rim nick. How would this rate?

    SHUSA268.jpg
     
  7. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    Well, I have looked and looked for signs on clashes on that first 1887 I posted and I just don't see it. Even at a large magnification on the image I have I don't see anything. I think I need a lesson on this form someone with more knowledge than I.
     
  8. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    VAM is an acronym for the authors, Leroy Van Allen and A. George Mallis, of the book, Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace Dollars. The book lists all of the varieties (1800+) that were known at the time of its release in 1992.

    A clash occurs when a planchet fails to enter the coining chamber and the obverse and reverse dies strike one another with sufficient force to impress details into the opposing die.

    Chris
     
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  9. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    The 21 is au58. The 87 can be anywhere from ms63-66 from those pics
     
  10. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I don't see any clashes, either! Take a look at the link I've provided, and you can see some clashes on an 1882-CC Morgan, VAM-2C3.

    http://www.vamworld.com/1882-CC+VAM-2C3

    Chris
     
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  11. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    Wow! That is way beyond my almost-non-existent knowledge of this topic.

    I am thinking I should stick to just collecting interesting world coins! :(
     
  12. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    I'm not one for guesstimating based on small scans, but the 1921 hints to me that it's a Mint State coin in the 63 range. Rather nicely struck.

    Do me a favor? Have a look at the reeding of the coin, and see which if these two types it better resembles:

    infrequentreeding.JPG

    The top reeds are wider than the bottom ones, which have almost as much low space between them as the high parts are wide. Those little lines you see in the low parts of the smaller reeding may or may not be there.
     
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  13. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    May I suggest that since you're new to VAMing, dont start with the 1921 unless you have some sort of alcoholic beverage close by lol. Also get used to the words "die scribbles" :hilarious:
     
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  14. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Snerk. :)

    I believe I see something on this coin which will make that much easier in this case. Could be wrong, of course.
     
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  15. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    .......and, stay away from "Scribbles" unless you have a death wish.

    Chris
     
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  16. Cascade

    Cascade CAC Variety Nerd

    I see what you see ;)
     
  17. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    It is definitely the top wider reeding. Is this significant?
     
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  18. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    The vast majority of 1921 Morgans were minted using a collar of 189 reeds. For some reason a very few (relatively speaking) were struck with a collar of 157 reeds, the lowest reed count of any Morgan. These are referred to as Infrequent Reeding 1921's.

    Yours is one of them. I believe it to be VAM-25A:

    http://www.vamworld.com/1921-P VAM-25A

    In your images above, I saw the telltale gouging at the edge of the denticles, above the first S in STATES and the F in OF.

    SHUSA269a.jpg

    You're not exactly going to retire on the proceeds, but it's a variety of additional interest and liquidity, and it'll sell at a premium. Not a bad cherrypick for someone who doesn't know VAMs yet. :)
     
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  19. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    Thanks. I am still having trouble seeing it. I think I am going to have to look at a large image when I get home from work. I have one which is scanned at 9200 dpi.

    All I have to do now is find someone who is interested in buying. :(
     
  20. HawkeEye

    HawkeEye 1881-O VAMmer

    I have to do all my shopping by internet, so the clash marks are something I see often. The one at the eagle's right wing is very faint, but that can be camera angle. To the outside of the left wing it is more prominent.
    Capture.JPG
     
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  21. sakata

    sakata Devil's Advocate

    So are you saying that any mark, however small, which can be attributed to a clash, makes the coin of interest? That, to me, is a very strange approach. To me it says there is a defect in the coin and that make it undesirable. As I said, I know nothing about VAMs and little about US coins. I am more interested in German coins.

    But this whole thread has been very educational to me. Thanks to all who contributed (and may continue to do so).
     
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