1917 dd wheat

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Bmagold, Aug 23, 2019.

  1. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I would like some input or any thoughts I can get on this. I sent a 1917 wheat back I felt was a double die to N G.C. some time ago. The doubleing was primarily in the liberty on the coin I sent. The coin graded out at EF45 but came back as a 1917. The grader acknowledged: the doubleing but claimed it was due to deterioration of the coin. Here were my arguments. I probably have @ 10-12 1917s in about good to very good condition not 1 of them show any doubleing of any kind. An EF-45 is damn near uncirculated so I am pretty sure there isn't much deterioration going on on the coin. MY coin does show doubleing in the date and the legend but it is weak. In the liberty however it is pretty strong in the B the E and the R. I can't find much stating how strong it has to be but I have found reference on how weak it can be. Acording to the Cherry pickers guide it reads quote "Early examples of this rare coin shows doubleing in the liberty " my thoughts are if a coin is liisted as a d/d and it has doubleing it makes sense that it is a d/d I am having a difficult time getting a picture of it as it has been slabbed and I only have my phone camera at present but will try and get an image off a digital camera. I am really not happy about this one
     
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  3. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    Pictures?

    NGC attributers are pretty good. They are probably right when they tell you it is not a Doubled die.
    Just because you read about the 1917 varieties doesn't mean you have one. Worn die strikes can occur on all years which cause die deterioration doubling.
     
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  4. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    Well I would have thought they would have read the Cherry pickers guide hell I would have figured someone over there wrote it
     
  5. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I am going to have to work on getting some good pics
     
  6. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    Only pictures can help in attribution. If you are ok with this then crack the slab open and show it.
     
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  7. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    We definitely need photos. NGC may have meant Die deterioration, not coin deterioration.
     
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  8. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    True however some of my crappy 1917s are really deteriorated are they saying the detiereration is in the coin or from the die?
     
  9. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    You have no idea how many times I have wanted to
     
  10. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I never really considered that. I will try and post some good shots of the coin
     
  11. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I never really considered that . I will try and shoot some good pics of the coin. I have to break away at present but I will be back. Thanks
     
  12. robec

    robec Junior Member

    You probably misunderstood what NGC said. They almost certainly said die deterioration. You can have an uncirculated coin that looks like new, yet the detail makes it look like it’s all worn out. It isn’t the coin that’s worn, it’s the die.
    Here is a PCGS MS64+ where the worn reverse die gives the coin the appearance of being well circulated.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    can you show a picture of the slab label?
     
  14. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    I've taken this remark directly from the "Description" in the CPG:
    "The earliest die state specimens will exhibit slight doubling on the RTY of LIBERTY."

    There were 196,429,785 coins struck at the Philly Mint in 1917. How many dies do you think were used to strike all of those coins? Just because the CPG refers to "early die state specimens", it does not mean that every coin struck on a new die is one of the DDO varieties.

    Get your facts straight.

    Chris
     
  15. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Now, you are bordering on stupidity. The original authors of the CPG are Bill Fivaz and J.T. Stanton (RIP, J.T.) Don't you know who they are?

    Chris
     
  16. GenX Enthusiast

    GenX Enthusiast Forensic grammatician

    They're definitely talking about die deterioration. It's one of the things that causes doubling that is not from a doubled die. Drives me MAD (another sort of worthless doubling).;)
     
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  17. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    Yes because if you look at anything from 1992-1998 you can find pronounced doubleing on alot of these coins with clear separation yet some coins are classified as a double die with no separation at all just thickness of #s ????
     
  18. desertgem

    desertgem MODERATOR Senior Errer Collecktor Moderator

    To my knowledge there is only one major DDO for 1917 and there is little mistaking the coin. When I go shopping on ebay, I do look for a higher grade than my VG,
    I can scan rapidly, and I only look at the date. The most prominent doubling is in the top bar of the 7, it is thicker at the joining than the vertical of the 7. The 1's and the inner curl of the 9 usually show some notching even in VG, if it is at least VF, undamaged in the date, one should be able to see most of the key points.


    https://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1917&die_id=1917p1do001&die_state=mds

    By the way, unslabbed '17 DDO are about 1/500 on Ebay, rest are MD at best.
    Jim
     
  19. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

     
  20. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I was being sarcastic on that statement
     
  21. Bmagold

    Bmagold Member

    I can accept that they were referring to the die and not the coin it but the written description wasn't delivered very clear
     
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