1909 IHC Variety Value

Discussion in 'What's it Worth' started by Razz, Jun 28, 2021.

  1. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    So I picked up this 09 IHC that turns out is a match to the FS101 (011.9), S-1, DDO 001. It matches the variety on indianvarieties.com, CPG, and in the PCGS value views pictures. The CPG states no added value and a 09 in MS 63 is $80 for both the normal and the variety. However, PCGS says $80 for the normal in MS63 and $500 in MS63 for the variety. Which is correct? CPG is a little older, have views changed on this variety's value? DSCN2966~2.JPG DSCN2968~2.JPG DSCN2981~2.JPG

    Doubling on the L of Longacre's initial on the ribbon is the pick up point.
     
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  3. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Cropped and rotated with the red around the L. DSCN2981~4.JPG
     
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  4. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    And a picture of my Kindle with a picture of the CPG's description (partial only -next page is the value by condition table).

    20210627_220625~2.jpg

    So what is it worth? No added value or 6x premium, depending on condition/grade?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
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  5. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I would say, What's it worth to who ever is Bidding if it were up for sale . I have the same book and however I think it's a little out of the Market values for the Varieties in it . I mean I like the Values given, but I think people are looking at Lower Prices for Varieties, especially like this one . Sorry for the bearer of bad news .
     
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  6. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    That says to me get it in a PCGS slab and in an auction before they change their mind.
     
  7. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Thanks Sal, I figured there would be a couple of "whatever someone is willing to pay" answers. Anyone else?
     
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  8. Inspector43

    Inspector43 Collecting Since 1948 Supporter

    Microscopic varieties are usually not as interesting as those that are more visible.
     
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  9. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    I agree with SensibleSal66 that variety prices are down across the board. The current zeitgeist seems to be ultra high grades for the common coins in your Registry Set. But who knows when that house of cards will fall and variety collecting comes back, as it surely will?
     
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  10. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Lets look at it another way, for insurance purposes. Doug always says the value is what a knowledgeable collector or dealer would pay. I haven't looked to see if heritage has sold this particular die variety and don't have access to a greysheet to see if the variety is listed there. Short of taking it to Rick Snow or sending it to PCGS, any other IHC series collectors or experts have an opinion?

    Edit: HA sold a 63 in 9/19 for $276 and back in 2013 SB sold a couple of 62s for $213 and $274. So the variety is down in value as mentioned above. Condition rarity and collector demand would drive the values. If CPG is correct and up to 1/4 of the mintage may display this die variety because more than one die had the "error", how would we ascertain the survivorship in higher grades? Obviously the variety would not be random across grades. Maybe just not enough demand for anyone to really care.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2021
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  11. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Have any of these ever sold in any auction you're aware of? $19.95. And if you order yours right now we'll send you a second one free, just pay the processing and shipping charges. Seriously, even PCGS has no clue what the market is on one of these, they don't even have any auction history on them, see here. Anybody else has to be just as arbitrary, don't you think?

    upload_2021-6-28_9-24-9.png
     
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  12. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    +++ for Sal's opinion. Thanks for the post, good luck.
     
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  13. coinquest1961

    coinquest1961 Well-Known Member

    I can't imagine a value of $500 for a very minor variety like that.
     
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  14. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    Neither can I but prices are dependant on supply and demand. It is technically a doubled die variety.
     
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  15. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    I am sure the book writers are more respected, but I agree it is a very 'minor' in size and it also bothers me that the size of visible areas of the letter is so much different. That in it's self might mean there are more copies that have not been noticed. I agree that if someone is willing to pay a big sum, go for it. Jim
     
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  16. 1865King

    1865King Well-Known Member

    Even though, you can see the doubling it comes down to who is interested in it and how easily it can be seen. I have Richard Snow two volume set on Indian Cents. There are two varieties of the 1909. S-1 and S-2. The S-1 is of little interest and the S-2 has some slight interest both are common. If you think it's really the S-2 you would almost need a microscope to see some of the doubling on the obverse letters. Bottom line on the 1909 the doubling of the L is common and doesn't add much or anything to the value.

    My rule of thump with varieties is if I need a microscope to see the variety I'm not interested in paying a premium for it. The best doubled dies in the Indian cent series is the doubled die reverse of the 1865 where the words ONE CENT are doubled and the 1873 doubled liberty. These are easy to spot just like the 1955 Lincoln Doubled die obverse.
     
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  17. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    While there appears to be a few people responding who have no interest in this variety, the fact of the matter is - sales history indicates this is worth a premium. I agree that its a relatively minor variety and I personally wouldn't have much interest in it - but clearly some others do.

    As for value, Auction history seems to indicate that an MS-63 is worth in the $250 to $300 range. I can't justify $500 based on the sales I see, but it is clearly worth a large premium over a regular issue.
     
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  18. frech001

    frech001 New but Old

    Not many collectors of Indian Head cents seem to collect a complete set of mint deliberate die changes. They just fill the holes in standard albums. There are, however, several additional mint design changes that weren't mistakes, as most varieties are, but were intentional changes in design. The 1909 Large L over small L is, in my opinion, one of the most unique changes because the decision to increase the size of the designer's initial for the last coin in the series included using a previous year's master die to which the date "1909" was added (for the first time) as well as stamping the larger L over a smaller L. The links in the attached pdf provide background information. When/if collectors who want a complete collection of all mint intended varieties recognize what constitutes a complete collection, then the price for nice examples like yours will go up. http://members.iphouse.com/frech001/Al's Flying Eagle and Indian Head Cent Complete Design Set.pdf
     
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