And that in a nutshell is EXACTLY the problem with coin grading. MONEY and VALUE. Make the rare coin graded XF decades ago MS to reflect what it is worth. Bump a grade because the coin has no problems or you wish to give a customer a "bone" for a "liner." IMO, we'll never know but if this coin gets into an XF holder at a major TPGS it will be a shame - unless it is graded XF-40, Environmental Damage due to the corrosion. Then, its actual grade is not important. As one member posted, VF worth more money than a VF grade would suggest.
The real problem here is not that very nice coins are being bumped to reflect what they are really worth . . . that's just a symptom of the root cause. The real problem is that we have ignorant players in this market who have absolutely no business buying coins, but the industry has become beholden to them, and will do seemingly anything to keep them involved. As long as the grading services cater to the needs of the ignorant big money (not intending to offend those big spenders who are dyed-in-the-wool collectors who can really grade and arrive at fair value), it's only a half measure to assign a grade to the coin. Why, because the grade in and of itself does not sufficiently assign value. It's like asking a guy with a bum leg to walk with half a cane. If the above coin were graded VF30, he'd not be able to decide if the price asked or offered was fair because he's not familiar with the full spectrum of coins in VF30 holders. I'm not saying that the TPG's are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. They are simply responding more completely to a perceived market need. If they weren't doing that, then they might just as well not be grading at all. My ultimate position on this is . . . do away with details grading, do away with market grading, do away with numerical grading, and preserve one and only one service . . . authentication. That would demand a level of dedication from those who wish to become / remain involved in this market. More importantly, it would increase focus on the cancer of the counterfeiting of collectible coinage. By the way, until the grading services stop evolving their grading standards, I will do my level best to walk in lockstep with them. As much work as it takes, I consider that better than falling behind.
"ToughCOINS, posted: "The real problem here is not that very nice coins are being bumped to reflect what they are really worth . . . that's just a symptom of the root cause. The real problem is that we have ignorant players in this market who have absolutely no business buying coins, but the industry has become beholden to them, and will do seemingly anything to keep them involved." I disagree. Grading services are to provide a service. The coin is genuine and its condition of preservation is THIS. The "this" is where they have screwed up by "evolving" the old standard and continuing to loosen it further. "As long as the grading services cater to the needs of the ignorant big money (not intending to offend those big spenders who are dyed-in-the-wool collectors who can really grade and arrive at fair value), it's only a half measure to assign a grade to the coin. Why, because the grade in and of itself does not sufficiently assign value. It's like asking a guy with a bum leg to walk with half a cane. If the above coin were graded VF30, he'd not be able to decide if the price asked or offered was fair because he's not familiar with the full spectrum of coins in VF30 holders. I'm not saying that the TPG's are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. They are simply responding more completely to a perceived market need. If they weren't doing that, then they might just as well not be grading at all." TPGS's SET THE STANDARD! They have for years. They are the root of the problem. "My ultimate position on this is . . . do away with details grading, do away with market grading, do away with numerical grading, and preserve one and only one service . . . authentication." That's nuts! "That would demand a level of dedication from those who wish to become / remain involved in this market. More importantly, it would increase focus on the cancer of the counterfeiting of collectible coinage. By the way, until the grading services stop evolving their grading standards, I will do my level best to walk in lockstep with them. As much work as it takes, I consider that better than falling behind." That's the key to success, learn to swim and follow the rip tide.
Eduard: FWIW, the PCGS web site (pcgs.com) has, as an illustration of VF35 Liberty Seated dimes, a picture of, would you believe, an 1885-s! It looks rather much like your example. Take a look and see what you think. Dave S.
"This" (the grade) does not determine value. The attributes of the coin do that. When newspapers, periodicals and mailings were the only available means of offering coins for sale, the grade was indispensable, but no longer. Photographs of coinage are almost ubiquitous today, and far more useful than numerical grades. No one needs to buy a coin sight unseen today when there are so many imaged examples available for purchase. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who wants to buy a coin sight unseen. There was a time when the value of a coin was almost universally determined by the adjectival grade, and later by the numerical grade. Now, valuing a coin has become so nuanced that the technical grade is less important than the sum of the coin's attributes, more easily conveyed by images than by a numerical grade. Unless one cannot grade, that is. It is for they which cannot grade that the numerical grade still determines value . . . or so they think. And that's where my argument holds water. Not all VF coins are worth the same amount of money. Do PCGS and NGC consciously boost the grade of an outstanding VF30 coin to XF40 to make sure it is appropriately priced? Do they suppress a homely VF25 to F15 for the same reason? I can't say for sure, as I do not work for them, but I've seen many examples which lead me to believe that is the case. Since those most dependent on the TPGs seem to blindly link a coin's value with its numerical grade, it makes sense to me that the TPGs would adjust the grade accordingly. Do I like that they do so (or appear to)? No, but I understand why. Yeah, doing away with everything except authentication seemed nuts to me too, at first. But I feel that dumping numerical grading by the TPGs would likely purge the investor community which drives so many issues to untenable levels and injects so much instability into the market. Seeing investors driven out of the market in one final exodus would be near term pain for long term gain. That's just one man's opinion, of course. I can't stand hearing repeated complaints of how expensive it has become to collect American coins, when the reason for it is plain for all to see. By the way, I forgot to include something in my thoughts last post. In addition to declaring the coin authentic, it should also be declared either natural or not. Then buyers can take comfort that their coins have not been cleaned, damaged or altered, and may then determine value for themselves, based purely on how they grade the coin. It was the abuses of unscrupulous dealers which gave birth to the TPG's in the first place. We, as knowledgeable collectors are fully capable of honing our grading skills, and re-calibrating as needed. If a declaration that a coin is both authentic and natural would suitably address the market need, I submit that a grade may not even be necessary on the holders. We'll see . . . so far I at least don't feel like I have been left behind.
Thats a beautiful and rare coin, Edward. This date is one of the final 10 that I am missing for a complete date/mm set and yours is very nice. I think it's a solid vf35 all day!
ToughCOINS, posted: "This" (the grade) does not determine value. The attributes of the coin do that. I agree! The attributes of the coin are what determines its grade = value. "When newspapers, periodicals and mailings were the only available means of offering coins for sale, the grade was indispensable, but no longer. Photographs of coinage are almost ubiquitous today, and far more useful than numerical grades. Unfortunately, images can be enhanced and even if they are a perfect representation of a coin they may not be enough. No one needs to buy a coin sight unseen today when there are so many imaged examples available for purchase. In fact, I don't think I know anyone who wants to buy a coin sight unseen." Ok, so what? With all due respect, this paragraph is very confusing: "There was a time when the value of a coin was almost universally determined by the adjectival grade, and later by the numerical grade. I'm OK with that. Now, valuing a coin has become so nuanced that the technical grade HOW THE HECK DID THIS (technical grade) GET INTO THE DISCUSSION is less important than the sum of the coin's attributes (ITS GRADE), more easily conveyed by images than by a numerical grade. Unless one cannot grade, that is. It is for they which cannot grade that the numerical grade still determines value . . . or so they think. And that's where my argument holds water. Whatever, I guess you are saying that now folks use an image to determine its NUMERIC GRADE and value. "Not all VF coins are worth the same amount of money. Obviously, not all coins of any grade are worth the same so...what is the point? Do PCGS and NGC consciously boost the grade of an outstanding VF30 coin to XF40 to make sure it is appropriately priced? Do they suppress a homely VF25 to F15 for the same reason? I can't say for sure, So why speculate? Now, I'm totally confused and your point of this entire post is...? as I do not work for them, but I've seen many examples which lead me to believe that is the case. Since those most dependent on the TPGs seem to blindly link a coin's value with its numerical grade, it makes sense to me that the TPGs would adjust the grade accordingly. Do I like that they do so (or appear to)? No, but I understand why." Yeah, doing away with everything except authentication seemed nuts to me too, at first. That first gut feeling is usually a good one! But I feel that dumping numerical grading by the TPGs would likely purge the investor community which drives so many issues to untenable levels and injects so much instability into the market. Seeing investors driven out of the market in one final exodus would be near term pain for long term gain. That's just one man's opinion, of course. I can't stand hearing repeated complaints of how expensive it has become to collect American coins, when the reason for it is plain for all to see. So, let's go back to selling ungraded genuine coins in the Wild West of the past. I'll bet you would get plenty of agreement on that one from all the wolves in waiting. By the way, I forgot to include something in my thoughts last post. In addition to declaring the coin authentic, it should also be declared either natural or not. Then buyers can take comfort that their coins have not been cleaned, damaged or altered, and may then determine value for themselves, based purely on how they grade the coin. With all due respect, I don't think 95% of the dealers in the country know the value of a genuine raw coin! Heck, even a TPGS slab has been known to trade a few times at a show while increasing in value each time! "It was the abuses of unscrupulous dealers which gave birth to the TPG's in the first place. Actually, it had nothing to do with grading - it was the COUNTERFEITS. Grading came along much later and as you've posted, there are still problems. We, as knowledgeable collectors are fully capable of honing our grading skills, and re-calibrating as needed. I agree, but what about the ignorant who wish to enjoy the hobby? If a declaration that a coin is both authentic and natural would suitably address the market need, I submit that a grade may not even be necessary on the holders." "We'll see . . . so far I at least don't feel like I have been left behind." Probably not but you are not the average collector who benifits from an opinion of grade.
Well, thank you all very much for your opinions, (and for the extended discussion on grading - even though I am not sure I fully understand what you folks are talking about). I think I will stick, as I have for 35 years now, to collecting U.S coins without plastic and rely on my own judgement.
Eduard, posted: "Well, thank you all very much for your opinions, (and for the extended discussion on grading - even though I am not sure I fully understand what you folks are talking about. I think I will stick, as I have for 35 years now, to collecting U.S coins without plastic and rely on my own judgement." I'm going to offer a well-intentioned "suggestion." Take a few of your best coins and send them in to a major TPGS when they run a special. That way you can check how you did over the past 35 years. Otherwise, go to a coin show and see what you are offered for a few of your "gems." Every collector should do this once and a while. It usually saves a big surprise later.
