1883-O VAM-4 Morgan from the local shop today. A little color inside.

Here is an 1883-O Morgan I picked up this evening. I really liked the color and it's a Top 100 VAM-4 to boot.

 

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Justin, I download your images and I don't think it's vam 4 . Denticle Impressions are missing, The mintmark isn't matching ( look inside mint mark doubling comes further down on vam 4 ) . Hard to tell if the extra metal is on the 1 & 8 of the date, or lines in the wreath .

New images of these areas would help make sure it's vam 4 ......

 

Well, the O/O is so plain and strong that it's clearly visible in Justin's full-face images - you can easily see the curve inside the O and the curves below it. VAM-4; no other 1883 O/O manifests with these details. The die scratch in the leaf above the E in ONE is plain, as well. I don't see any real problem with the location of the mint mark artifacts, just images which are sharper and in higher resolution than we normally get to see them.

This is Leroy's language from the official VAM description:

That is a die state manifestation, an event which occurred during the striking life, and not all coins will show it.

And by the way, Justin? You suck, as usual. Wonderful coin.

 

Here's a couple of side by side of the date .
Could be me, but they don't match .

 

Another good pickup on the v4 is the beveled field and chips below 18. It can be used as a good pup when looking at bad ebay pics that don't show the omm well enough

 

Look at the doubling in the first 8, top right side.
Justin coin doesn't have it ....

 

With all due respect, all that shows is the two coins are rotated just a little bit differently.

When you're making comparatives about date placement and orientation, let the coin show you the straight lines. Take a vertical along the upright of the 1, and see where that intersects the denticles. Take a vertical through the exact center of the 8's. Don't impose your own arbitrary standards. Let the coin dictate.

And if you're going to use a horizontal as an indicator, at least locate it in the same place on both coins. Yours isn't; look closer. And the lines are too thick to be definitive.

Dies change during their usage. Wear happens, impacts happen, lots of things happen. That's why denticle impressions appear and then disappear again, and that's why beveling appears and changes. And if you look at the difference in toning pattern, you can see the beveling on Justin's coin under the date. There's a reason why there are "die states." It doesn't have to be exact, it has to be commensurate with what we know about how dies change during their lifetime.

 

Again, I could be wrong, but look at the way the bottom part of the 8 ( I Put A Circle Around That Area ) it doesn't match either .

 

It's worth discussing, but there's still not enough to make me change my mind about anything. Two different coins, two different imaging styles, neither anywhere near large enough to be coming to any conclusions about feature locations.

 

I used to own one of these! To me, there is no question that this is the Top 100 VAM-4. The key is the placement of the RPM.

Rick, your date comparisons are way off. One oval you use on the "8" is fat, one is narrow and neither are placed in the same position.

Chris

 

Like I said everyone, I could be wrong, that's for sure ...

 

One glaring feature of the above images that should be speaking for themselves and not the date, is the extra metal below the date and above dentils. Also here is a higher resolution image of the reverse showing a detail of the mintmark.

Also to note, when I am setting the vertical on the obverse of a Morgan, I use the method that @rmpsrpms uses. I set the vertical line from the tip of the right wheat stalk down through the center of the date.



And here are some in my opinion, better images of the obverse and reverse. The first set was shot using a combination of axial lighting and direct lighting. I'm not sure that I like it.

 

I think its VAM-4

 

Unquestionably VAM 4.

The O/O mint mark gives it away. The blemish on the die below 18 is there, but hard to see. The ejection doubling on the denticles above PLURIBUS are probably hidden in the toning. The position of the date does not vary from die to die until 1884.

Pretty coin, too.

 

Nice coin Lee that mm is a dead ringer For a vam 4.
Love the color has eye appeal .

 

Yep, VAM4. The only other one that comes close is VAM16 and that is only under traffic camera photos, which these are clearly not. Nice pick and very nice photos.

 

Thanks guys. The second I saw the MM I knew, it was something. At the time I couldn't place it. But when I got home and looked it up, the light bulb went off. I had picked one of these from the same dealer last year. I wish I could start to memorize the VAM's as I know very few of the dealer's around here attribute them.