1883 O Morgan Guess Grade

'Atta boy!

For the record, I think you're confusing toning for high-point wear -- you will notice that same discoloration on more hidden areas of the coin, including the bottom right of the jawline and on the reverse to the left of the eagle's neck in the fields. These are areas that WOULD NOT be worn so therefore I doubt the high-points are worn because they are the same color.

That's a PQ 64 if I've ever seen one. Cheek looks nice enough for a 65. From the scans, that looks like quite a nice coin.

Respectfully...Mike

 

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Well with all the debate here I would like to disclose I am only in this coin $72 including shipping.

So I probably haven't done that bad even if it is the finest known AU55 to be graced with a PCGS MS64 holder. I'm sure I can get rid of it and get all my money back with relative ease.

 

This is a very good point. GD is analyzing a blown up photograph of the coin whereas multiple graders had the opportunity to view the actual coin in hand. It is hard for me to believe that multiple graders at PCGS would see a weak strike with discoloration and just ignore it without pulling out their loupes. This is not a market graded coin from AU to MS as Eddie implied. This coin in MS64 barely qualifies as a rare coin and no grader in his right mind would market grade an 1883-O Morgan from AU to MS. The graders of this coin thought that it was a mint state coin, not AU. This is not the first time that I have said this. I will continue to trust the opinion of multiple professional graders at a reputable TPG who had the opportunity to view the coin in hand over a seasoned collector who looked at photo.

GD, I want you to know that I am not doubting your expertise, experience, or grading ability, but again, I find it very presumptuous of you to determine that the PCGS graders are wrong based on a photo, and not a good one at that. Additionally, from what I have seen, your grading standards are about the most stringent I have ever seen.

After all, I posted an MS68 Morgan Dollar guess the grade thread that you publicly criticized NGC for overgrading badly. After I posted an entire thread dedicated to the subtleties of the Morgan Dollar MS67 grade which included that coin, your comments were conspicuously absent.

IMO, you need to realize that many of the members of this forum take your opinion as fact, and I think you should be a little less definitive when disputing the opinions of the graders of NGC and PCGS based on photos. Hell, you have Rhoggman ready to dump the coin at a loss based simply on your post. You have the right to think that this coin is AU all you want, but that does not change the fact that it is simply that, an opinion. An opinion based on a photograph.

I agree with leadfoot 100%, this is a weakly struck Morgan Dollar and it is properly graded, IMO. However, I have a proposal that I think will solve the debate. If Rhoggman will sell me the coin at his cost, I will crack it and submit it to NGC. If both TPG's call it MS64, I guess we can't argue with that.

 

I wasn't exactly ready to dump the coin at a loss... haha

I may may not be a seasoned grader, but I did buy this coin thinking it was very nice without taking much notice to the particularly weak strike. With that said I have learned to pay more attention to detail, and will do so in the future.

I take everything with a grain of salt, and I am not quick to make a judgment based on one opinion.

I myself mentioned in an earlier post that that the coin had toning, and that I could not really distinguish between the toning and the perceived wear, or rub.

I realize that everyone here is offering an opinion, and while I might not be that "seasoned grader", I trust my opinion enough to believe in my original intent when I bought this coin. But... like I said I still have something to take away from this thread as a learning experience in grading.

That resubmit to NGC idea sounds like an interesting proposition. I will have to see the coin in hand before I contemplate that anymore. I may like to keep it as a "learning tool" if nothing else.

 

What happens if NGC grades it 65?

 

Really! While you're at it, Lehigh, why don't you see if he's got two tens for a five?

 

I thought rhoggman's morgan look like a MS66. Another NGC MS64 star recently sold for over $1200!

 

Game, Set, Match, Lehigh96 wins!

 

More than $1,200

 

This from the guy who thinks PCGS is market grading AU 1883-O Morgans to MS. Who knows, you could be right, they may have actually thought we need to make this $20 coin into a market acceptable $50 coin.

Do me a favor, don't turn you hatred of the TPG's on me just because I agree with them and not you.

 

One thing to be mentioned here. When looking for common date ms morgans especially with the O. Look for the ones that have been well struck.

 

That makes no sense.... Why someone would pay 1200 for a 64* is beyond me. I usually try not to even come close to the price guide. Unfortunately, on this coin there were multiple bidders. After shipping costs et cetera I was at $72.

1883 0
NGC's price guide: PCGS's Price Guide:
MS64=64.80-----------67.00
MS65=190.00----------185.00
MS66=450.00----------500.00

 

PCGS's grading standards are found at the following link.
http://www.pcgs.com/grades.chtml

I doubt this coin could ever acheive a 65 with PCGS because it does not have an average strike. It has a weak strike.

I'm having a little trouble digging up NGC's standards so if you know where to find them... please post a link.

 

You can read the standards all you want, PCGS will grade Morgans with that kind of strike 65 all day long -- provided the luster is good and the cheek/breast/fields are clear.

 

Do me a favor and don't go letting your imagination get the better of you to the point where you're incompetent to discern humor when it's staring at you right in the face and corroborated with a big .

 

You know I read your initial comment at least a dozen times. I still don't know what it means. I am glad it was meant as a joke and gladly retract my rather nasty retaliatory jab back at you. encil:

Just one thing though. What did it mean?

 

Good enough...thanks. It's just an expression. I was thinking, if he'd sell you that coin for MS-64 money, you ought to be able to hit him up for two tens for a five. In other words, I agree with you, this coin could grade a lot better.

Let me just end with this, so there's no misunderstanding. Doug is right. I see the evidence of wear, now...at least, on the obverse (ear, and adjacent hair). I guess this could go, technically, one of the finest AUs we've ever seen (which, BTW, was Doug's initial comment). Nonetheless, I'll at least say it market grades two grades higher as a crackout. Yes, MS-66. JMO, now...

 

Eddie, Again, IMO Doug is (and you are) mistaking toning for wear. Look again at the photos and my post above, repeated below...

For the record, I think you're confusing toning for high-point wear -- you will notice that same discoloration on more hidden areas of the coin, including the bottom right of the jawline and on the reverse to the left of the eagle's neck in the fields. These are areas that WOULD NOT be worn so therefore I doubt the high-points are worn because they are the same color.

You are free to disagree...and perhaps you already have , but IMO it doesn't matter whose standard you use, that's not an AU coin.

Respectfully...Mike

 

Because they value the coin more than they did the $1200+.

Seriously, I'm scratching my head on that one too. Toned Morgans are a dime a dozen (for instance there are 140 64*'s of this date graded by NGC), and the above pictured coins is attractive, but hardly a monster IMO. To wit, paying that much of a multiple for a common coin with average to above average reverse toning is silly to me, and quite par for the course with respect to the now-defunct Anaconda. Then again, I don't buy toned Morgans either (and their price is a large part of the reason), and I respect completely those who do...Mike

p.s. Sorry for kind of ragging on (presumably) your coin Lehigh, but I call them like I see them, and hope you would do the same. Regardless of the price or the grade (or my opinion thereof), it's a very attractive coin!

 

Perhaps a photo will better explain what I'm talking about: