1877 indian cent

Actually, IMO, you are correct. In my first post I wrote the coin looks like a nice RB Indian; yet, they do not come "pink." IMO, no trick of the camera or light in the OP. The "N" is pink closer to the orange color seen on recolored copper. So they missed a spot! Again, IMO, that scared off the graders at both TPGS's.

The fact that even Heritage could not get it straight graded says more than all the posts here.

 

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"Cleaned" should be differentiated, as there are intelligible criteria going into that call. It's like error, variety, or RPM. Those are intelligible criteria, going into those calls. As such, they should tell us they're seeing. That's not so with grades and pretty-grading, as any fool can pretty-grade. "Ooh, they blew that one, that's not that pretty, lookie here, I want my money back!" Yeah. That's where grading in this "hobby" is at.

 

Well just did a little research and during the spring and summer of 1943 a bank teller was paid between .90-$1.00 @ hour. That's $40.00 @ week.
Since we lived in a city of a higher population and dad worked for the Fed's I'll go with the salary of a $1 @ hour gross with no with holdings.
Now understand at an inflation rate of 3.68% a $40.00 per week salary is equal to $559.82 in 2016 dollars per week. That comes to $13.995 @ hour or $ 29,110.64 per year in 2016 dollars.

What's is clear is dad had to work 2 hours to afford the roll of unc. 1943 P nickels.
And that makes it crystal clear why he couldn't afford to pull the trigger that often as he had a wife and family to support .

 

I collect them. Very nice '77.

 

They can't tell an original red coin from one that has had some "help". They really can't so they do what they did to this coin. When I grade, I have to go by what my experience tells me looking face-to-coin, so to speak. It's not possible to do that with a picture. I have a story to tell you about a coin but will let some others chime in first.

 

Story time please

 

I thought you were a long-time, advanced collector who submits to PCGS and NGC. Apparently, I was mistaken. @eddiespin, It may surprise you but I AGREE. I feel that the major grading services should EDUCATE their customers as well as grade their coins and take their money. That said, in my experience that is done on a regular basis by ONLY ONE "second-tier" service. You can prove this to yourself. I suggest members flood the switchboards of ANACS, NGC, ICG, PCGS, and I'll even include SEGS in this challenge. Note: I forgot about Vance at "Wings" and Rick at "Eagle Eye." They are not included here as they will both pass this test so please don't bother them ("Wings" is for foreign coins).

Challenge: Call one of the TPGS's above (more than once over the week to get a "real" answer as you may get lucky with one try). Ask to speak with a grader. Then ask about the difference between a recolored Indian, and a cleaned one. Post your results. Did you speak with a grader? Did he/she help you or blow you off?

Now, I'll tell you why (IMO) what you and I wish for - education - is not done. The TPGS's are very successful at what they do. No time for education as the graders are very busy. I've been told that on some days (especially the younger SE graders) they feel like they work in "sweat-shop" conditions.

As far as PROPERLY labeling a coin as to "details": Sometimes it really does not matter. Artificial color or artificial toning both kill the coin and limit liability. Ditto for artificial color or cleaning.

Important: Here is something you'll hear in the basic and advanced grading seminars - depending on who your instructor is: In most cases, TPGS do not make a distinction between a coin that has been over-dipped, cleaned, etched, buffed, or polished! So you see, I agree with you and think this practice is not good enough.

As for "pretty-grading," you'll get no argument here. IT SUCKS and goes against how all us old timers learned/practiced. Unfortunately, the movers and shakers who control the coin business/market evolved "commercial" grading to fit their needs. That's the way it is done now so I'll suggest you suck it up, learn what's pretty, and quit complaining or trying to change things. I HAVE. That's the reason I originally posted that the OP's coin LOOKED red and brown. It was pretty. Perhaps, if I had it in my hand in a grading room as professional graders (far above my pay scale) at two major grading services did, it would not be so "pretty."

I hope many here take the above challenge and call the TPGS this week. I will, but I'm not going to post the results of my calls here UNTIL at least four other well-known members of @eddiespin's caliber/respect post theirs.

 

Based off of one stagnate picture, that is far from damming evidence. The fact both services saw something they didn't like on it says something. It is not a bad coin by any means, but both services giving it a details grade is far to much of a coincidence for just making stuff up like some people imply. Had they called it a 5k coin there would be a group bashing them for not details grading it.

As far as the OP if it was my coin I would give it one more shot at PCGS. There's a chance you may be able to get a net grade for whatever the issue is but as far as details grades go Questionable Color is as good as they get and some people don't even really consider those details coins unless it is some atrocious color.

 

Touche. But, no, I don't play the game, you're right about that. I'm a collector, not a submitter, lol.

Actually, that's not entirely accurate. When I want to cash off on the fools in one of the major markets, I'll submit to my dealer, and he'll submit it to that TPG, a.k.a., "market grader." He's batting 1000 for me, so I'm not complaining.

 

We all have stories so let's hear yours. I love TPGS's stories. In fact at several grading/authentication seminars the instructor has stated NO STORIES as the entire week would be taken up by TPG and stories about coin dealers.

In my experience SOME coins will ALWAYS have divided opinions. That goes for authenticity also which we should think should ALWAYS be a yes or no easy opinion given qualified professional experts!

Your point is well made, all of us here (no matter our expertise) are dealing with a photo. Photo's lie!

On occasion TPGS like to CTA. We are asked to believe that two "considered the best" due to popularity are CTA in the case of this coin. Send the darn thing to Rick Snow for just an opinion. Better yet, send it for an offer to see if he says he can only pay $$$ as it is not original. I think no matter the result, there would still be other opinions and we all know that opinions (especially under these circumstances using a photo) are like backsides...

 

Well you know an AWFUL lot for just a collector! Seems your numismatic skill is on par with your talent in a pool room.

 

Story time Pretty Please.

 

I always say, buy the coin and not the slab holder.

 

"Once upon a time there was a 1877 transgender and no one knew what it was...."

 

There's an old saying: "To play billiards well is an accomplishment. To play it too well is proof of a misspent youth." Anyway, I'm not the one who ditched my grammar school education to hang around in the pool rooms, that's 9-ball Chris, a.k.a., @cpm9ball.

 

Is it just me or do others just call Chris "Campbell" in their minds. Kinda like calling Conder101 "Condor"

 

It's just you, lol.

 

Like everyone said, it looks fine and yes it could have been dipped before but the color looks fine to me. RB would be what I see

 

This happened a long time ago. Almost 30 years.

My son and I visited a coin shop than was on the sun porch at the home of a local District Justice. A very nice, older gentleman who loved coins. My six year old son was looking through his junk box and found a 1909 Lincoln cent that was encased in a piece of beveled glass about an inch square and a third of an inch thick. The coin had obviously been dropped in when the glass was molten or perhaps sealed there in some way that wasn't so obvious to us. It looked just like a piece of Lucite (but it was real glass) with a bright red/orange penny embedded in it!

When I say red, I mean it was the color of a bright, new penny just off the die! We took a penny from a current BU roll and laid them side by side and they were the EXACT same color. And to top it off, the coin was well struck and mark free.

Two or three years later, the grading services started up and I drove 75 miles to a coin dealer who had started sending coins to PCGS and he couldn't wait to see what they graded this one!

This story isn't really about the grading service and the "real" or artificial color of coins as it came back MS64 Red. I do remember that the submitting dealer expected a 66 or a 67 grade and said it only brought a 64 because they downgraded it because they didn't believe that a coin could remain red for that many years and wanted us to join him in a law suit against the graders for under-grading coins " guys like us. I thought he was nuts.

None of it really mattered anyway as the reverse of the coin started to tone within a very short period of time. The obverse is developing some very small specks also. You may be able to view this a PCGS's site under number 2431.64/3223306 although I don't know if they kept photo records that far back.

 

Thanks for the story...I don't think MS-66 or MS-67 was used back then but it gave us a great description of how nice your coin was!

I learned grading when MS/PR-65 was the highest grade; so it is VERY HARD for me to call a coin MS-66 or 67 today unless it is a bullion piece.