1866 IHC - send to NCS?

Technically it's not a problem-free coin. It's been improperly cleaned... in or out of a slab. Show any dealer worth their salt that coin and they will all tell you that.

The first picture of the obverse is what I would call technically strong and problem-free.

 

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What do you see on the reverse that would cause you and [in your perception] "any dealer worth their salt" to conclude the reverse was "improperly cleaned?"

 

He's saying that the iridescent toning says "MS70" to him (and any dealer worth their salt.) Hasn't been my experience, but then I have very little coin show experience...

 

Well, first of all, iridescent toning doesn't necessarily say "MS-70." More importantly, though, even if it did, so what? That is to say, I don't see any harm to the technical condition of that reverse, whatsoever.

 

Well, that's where you and I would tend to agree. I haven't really made up my mind on the topic - but I think I stand firmly in the position that the coin is more attractive after than before. I know some disagree - which is okay with me. I respect their opinions...just as I would hope they respect mine.

Will I use MS70 on copper coins to remove PVC goo in the future? I'd say it's possible - but I may give Coin Care a shot to see what kind of results that gives me first. See...I might just have learned something...

 

Stldanceartist, keep your eye on the coin. That's all you have to do. Once you let yourself be influenced to take your "mind's eye" off the coin and put it on evidence extrinsic to the coin, that's where, you'll find, the trouble starts. :smile

 

Technical details wise... you are correct. The details grade hasn't changed.

The surfaces of this coin however have.

I agree that it blue toning is not always attributed to MS70... but 9.5/10 times blue toning on copper is. What I am saying is that done properly that coin could have been certified... as it is now it will not certify.

 

Matt, it won't grade at the PCGS SecurePlus level, that's for sure, as their "coin sniffer" will pick up that MS-70. The way I look at it, that's their business. They can grade by whatever standards they want. To me, just to further clarify, unless the onset of the toning, or even the manner in which the toning was imparted, has a negative effect on the underlying technical condition of the coin, the coin is collectible.

PS: Let the record reflect I'm aware that that position isn't going to win me any popularity contests over at the PCGS.

 

By no means am I insinuating that this coin is not collectible. It does appear to have luster and is not the worst looking 1866 I have ever seen BY FAR... definitely still collectible.

I just think that if he had gone with his first instinct and sent it to NCS that coin would be in a slab right now with no issues prob in the AU range. He has been really good about taking it all in.. and I know a lesson has been learned here.

It's just like building a deck on your house. It's definitely cheaper to do it yourself... but are you going to be happy with the results? Are you going to get it right? Should you have spent a little more and hired a professional?

 

Oh, and BTW everyone - in case you were wondering, my name is Benjamin. I'm not sure what everyone can see on my profile, but I thought it was a bit strange being called by my username...which isn't any nickname I've used in person. As such, still not used to it...

Also, from reading other posts in other forums, it seems that opinions (as usual when it comes to cleaning coins) vary widely on the subject of using MS70 on copper. I can understand the frustration of those who hold very firm opinions on the matter - I would agree that the subject has been beaten to death, in many posts, and many forums. I am an organized person (I think the Navy did that to me!) and this is why I'd love to read a complete survey of techniques, products, and results for each type of coin. I hear this quote many times "if you don't know what you're doing, don't clean coins" but the unfortunate problem is that knowledge doesn't just appear overnight like the Matrix - they can't just plug me in to a computer and teach me Kung-Fu. (Side note: if they fixed the information in his brain to be technically accurate, why would he still refer to it in the US slang term of Kung-Fu?)

I'm going to read. I'm going to ask. I'm going to watch what other people do. The problem with this method:

*I don't know how accurate the information is, whether the information was obtained in a systematic and unbiased method.
*Information varies widely from person to person, forum to forum, book to book.
*"Information" changes due to current opinion of the group (i.e., what is acceptable practice now wasn't acceptable practice 100 years ago.)
*I am curious how much knowledge is based on fact and how much is based on rumor/opinion/faith/advertising/spin.


As someone who has been trained in media studies (yes, dance does teach other things outside of being a stripper when you graduate, as most people seem to think) I try to reserve judgement on a product or method until I've verified it with facts or actual experience. I try to get around things like spin and personal taste. This posting has been great for me because it is a barometer of how a certain aspect of the coin collecting community feels about this particular coin (and, it seems, copper coins with blue toning.) I don't have a degree in chemistry (although I was a Navy nuke for a while, which is mostly math, physics, and thermodynamics) and as such the posts on the specific chemical makeup of certain products is fascinating. I've found a few - and I'll always read any past posts you can think of.

Of course, no one has posted any of those yet - and that has been a bit frustrating for me. I feel the greatest strength of a forum like this is that the experienced posters have read those articles and can point them out to someone who is looking for the information. I'm really happy that this hasn't turned into an argument - I've done my best to make sure what I say hasn't come across as defensive - but I do think that at this point I don't feel the topic has been definitively answered.

Once again, just in case, THANK YOU to everyone who continues to add their two cents to this discussion, and especially to those who have, like me, continued it in a polite and respectful manner.

 

That's always an issue and one can certainly goof-up, at the minimum, the surface of a coin like that. Personally, FWIW, I like NCS. Have to shove off, for now, Matt, and try and get some work done.

PS: :thumb:

 

Very nice coin.

 

Too bad you used MS70 on it, it definately affected the surfaces.

CoinCare is nothing but white mineral oil with an odorant for those wondering. Save yourself some money if you're buying it and just get some white oil from Walgreens. It's actually better because it's typically odorant-free.

VC would have removed the verdgris without damaging the surfaces or negatively affecting the color. It definately would have been your best choice for this coin.

 

I do have two questions that may or may not cause some to get defensive - but I will ask them because I want to hear the thought process. I'm not meaning to offend or attack here - so please don't take it as such!

1. When the coin photos were posted (post-cleaning) there was a suggestion that the "negative" effects (I say this because not all agree that the effects were negative) could be reversed or overcome by placing the coin in an older album with a high sulfur content. To me, the motivation for doing that would be "I have a coin that has a problem, but I can hide it by doing this." Is that not intentionally changing the appearance of the coin to make it more attractive? Honestly, I have been getting some better IHC and I just wanted an attractive album to put them in...I wasn't thinking, "Oh, no! I have to find a way to cover up what I've done!"

2. Charmy, I absolutely respect the knowledge that you bring to the table as a coin dealer (especially copper) - and my questions for her (and others who may be dealers) are: why do you clean your coins? What coins do you clean, and what coins do you avoid cleaning? Finally, do you ever clean coins with the intention of improving their appearance in order to sell them? I totally realize that these questions could be misinterpreted as accusatory - and they are not. I'm approaching this in an effort to better understand the specific thought process of a person that buys and sells coins for a living. There is no "trap" I'm waiting to spring with the information taken from your answers.

3. Should products that are advertised for coin conservation/cleaning have ingredients on the label? Should coin shops only carry products that they are knowledgeable about and warn customers on the possible negative effects a product could have on their coins? Read through the label information from my bottle of MS70 and tell me whether you believe it says anything about turning copper coins blue. Should a company be liable for perceived damage to a coins appearance if used according to their directions? (And by saying this I'm not saying that I believe the coin is ruined.)

I'll read specifically from the label of MS70 here:

MS 70
"Industrial strength"
Coin Brightener

Safe to use on:

Gold ~ Silver ~ Nickel
Copper ~ Bronze ~ Brass

Contains no acid
Does not give your coin that "dipped" look

MS70 does not change the color of your coin but does remove surface contamination and tarnish. MS70 will allow the natural beauty of the original surface to show as bright as the day your coin left the mint.

MS70 was designed to be used on mint state or proof coins but does wonders on AU or slightly used coins, restoring the brilliant surfaces that remain under the tarnish and years of surface contamination that has accumulated on your coin. Surface contamination is PVC, tarnish, fog, oil, dirt, etc.

Directions for use:

MS70 is NOT a dip and will not work by dipping your coin. Apply MS70 directly to coin or soak a Q-tip in MS70 to gently apply to coin. Allow a few seconds for MS70 to penetrate the contaminants on the coin then gently "massage" the surface of the coin with a Q-tip which has been soaked in MS70. Thoroughly rinse coin in water. Note: When using on copper do a few "test coins" to become familiar with how product works.

Keep out of reach of children.
Caution: contains strong cleaners

First aid data
Skin: Contact can cause irritation, flush exposed area with tap water for 15 minutes. If irritation persists, consult a physician.
Eyes: Can cause irritation or damage to eye tissue. In the event of eye contact flush exposed area with water for at least 15 minutes and contact a physician immediately.
Ingestion: Can cause severe tissue damage to mouth, esophagus, and stomach. Do not induce vomiting. Drink large amounts of milk. Consult physician immediately.

Betterbilt Chemicals (909) 392-3111

 

Final questions (for now):

4. It has been mentioned in other posts/discussions that the negative effects of using MS70 on a coin may not be immediately apparent, but would show up at some point in the future. Has anyone owned a coin that long to be able to specifically say what the long-term effects are? I would think this is something that would only be possible now (with the advances in digital imaging technology.)

5. I've also read that many people feel that many, if not most coins have, in fact, been cleaned in some way at some point. Many of these coins have been graded already. What is the difference between "proper" and "improper" cleaning? I realize that rubbing, scratching, whizzing are all on the easy side of "improper." Never during the entire process did I rub anything on the coin - so there should be no marks on it from me...that said, what if the coin was soaked in something in the last 150 years that causes MS70 to turn it blue (and that's why?) Thad?

6. Thad, what's in VerdiCare that makes it different than the other products we've talked about? I'm asking because the makers of MS70 clearly state that their product "will not change the color of your coin" - as you do. Why is VC different from MS70 (for that matter, what's in MS70?) I'm also curious what you mean by "affected the surfaces" of the coin - are you just referring to the blue toning that wasn't present before?

Thanks again!

 

Well from reading what you posted from your label of MS 70 it does say to try on a few different copper coins to see the results before using on the actual coin you want to clean...to me thats a big red flag that says 'hey it may do something besides clean copper, try at your own risk'

 

It's interesting, because their label is contradictory - "does not change the color" and "do a few test coins to become familiar with how product works." Of course, this could be a legal liability statement - as Conder stated, no two coins are exactly alike and I am getting the feeling (just a feeling) that you will never really be able to predict what a certain product will do to a certain coin. How many "test" coins does Betterbilt expect you do experiment on to become familiar with the products' interaction with coins? Ten? 100? 1,000? I feel like you could alter the entire population of copper coins before you could accurately predict what would happen 90% of the time. Again, this is why I feel there should be a reasonable case study on the subject. In fact, once I get back to school in August (and have my photo setup available) I may just perform this on some Memorials - a product I can easily obtain, has little risk in regards to value, and have extremely high mintages (so no worry about attrition.) If I had millions of dollars I might commission a professional study...but looks like I'll just have to settle for a second-rate, do-it-yourself scientific study...lol...of course, great things have come from people who put time into questions they had!

 

Interesting post in another forum from Mark Feld, a San Diego-area dealer and former NGC grader:

Treatments that merely remove adherent contaminants such as dirt, dust, debris, oil, PVC, or films of foreign substances without altering the underlying metallic surfaces of the coin are not doctoring. This category of treatments typically includes solvent dipping (such as acetone or isopropanol), and mild ultrasonic cleaning in an aqueous solution that does NOT contain reactive agents. Non-reactive agents include simple pH-neutral detergents and surfactants.

Any treatment that mechanically alters the surfaces (whizzing, brushing, abrading, polishing, electropolishing, lasering), or that alters the surface chemistry (deliberate removal or creation of oxides or sulfides by thermal and/or chemical processes) is DOCTORING.

Contrary to what has been stated in a previous thread on these boards, MS70 is NOT a harmless (i.e. non-reactive) detergent. A simple pH analysis shows it to be strongly caustic (alkaline). Further analysis indicates that in addition to any detergent or surfactant present in MS70, IMHO there is a presence of sodium hydroxide (caustic soda, the active ingredient in lye). Copper is fairly reactive with most acidic and alkaline agents. The sodium hydroxide that I believe to be present in MS70 will have a color-changing and surface-altering effect on copper.

Similarly, another household product that contains an alkaline hydroxide compound is well known to have color-changing effects on copper: namely, household "ammonia" (actually that is a misnomer; the common household product is not true ammonia, but rather an aqueous solution of ammonium hydroxide).

The use of MS70 or ammonia on copper falls squarely into the category of DOCTORING, as these hydroxide compounds are reactive with copper, and have an effect on surface chemistry and color. The effects are heightened at elevated temperatures.

The mere removal of a shellac film with an otherwise non-reactive agent such as acetone is not doctoring in my opinion. However, the recent surge of blue and other toned copper does not have its origin in the removal of old shellac coatings ... rather, it is being created by DOCTORING, including the use of ammonium and sodium hydroxides, and thermal treatments."