1858 LL Flying Eagle, Known Snow #? Die Clash or What?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by scguy, Nov 26, 2022.

  1. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    eddiespin likes this.
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  3. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Fascinating! Thank you!
     
  4. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I have to say I'm feeling better about my theory after reading this discussion. Take another look at this. Look at how the arc of the damage is aligned with the arc of the perimeter of the coin, or the denticles. Were this a "gang punch" struck over denticles, one would expect that alignment. Why aren't there more? Well, do we know there aren't more? No. Do we know the Mint didn't catch it and stop it and destroy the run repurposing the metal for a better run? No. All I know is I'd be sending this to Rick Snow. I'd be emailing him these pictures and see if he wants to see it. You boys should read this discussion @physics-fan3.14 linked to. These date-punches damage just like dies do. This anomaly I still think is struck-through denticles from a low date-punch employed subsequently to date-punch this die. There's enough here suggesting this is the punch that sustained the damage, not the die. Send Rick these pictures. Get that opinion on it, that's what I'd do.

    upload_2022-11-27_14-40-40.png
     
  5. Steven Shaw

    Steven Shaw Well-Known Member

    How could a soft metal like copper-nickel damage a steel punch? The denticles on an FE aren't rounded like that anyway. Screenshot_1.jpg
     
    KBBPLL likes this.
  6. physics-fan3.14

    physics-fan3.14 You got any more of them.... prooflikes?

    Ah, eddie, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what you're smoking, but those of us with jobs should avoid it.
     
    Steven Shaw likes this.
  7. KBBPLL

    KBBPLL Well-Known Member

    I think we're trying way too hard to make something out of nothing here.
     
    Steven Shaw likes this.
  8. Steven Shaw

    Steven Shaw Well-Known Member

    The Midnight Minter is laughing in his grave.
     
  9. scguy

    scguy Active Member

    No, on it’s way to me
     
  10. scguy

    scguy Active Member

    I’ve emailed him with the pictures, I’ll update with what he says. I don’t think it’s denticle PMD, think about the angle that would have to be at. I don’t know where I lie with it at the same time, could be PMD, but someone messaged me to acknowledge to the fact that the bottom of the 8 resembles the top of a 7 from an 1857, so potentially a MPD? Not really sure. Hoping Rick will be able to sort all of this out
     
  11. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    The denticles might not match up. This damage still may be restricted to the date-punch, though, and not from the die, given these dates, for all we know, are gang-punched. Good decision. He'll know. Good luck, and let us know the verdict.
     
  12. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    just damage
     
    Hoky77 likes this.
  13. Hoky77

    Hoky77 Well-Known Member

    I say PMD. If this was struck through the material would not have pushed into the 5 and the eight as the flow of the metal would have moved outside the date not into it. The die would have had to be damaged to allow flow inside of the five and eight and this damaged die would have certainly produced enough specimens to become a known variety. The same if a faulty date punch was used, there would be many known examples.
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Since I was asked, about all I can say is there are 3 possibilities I can think of - PMD, strikethrough, and a damaged punch. And yes, punches are known for becoming damaged, they wear like dies and hubs, (both hardened metal), they break like dies and hubs, but I think it is very unlikely that is what happened here given what see, namely the curves. So I think one of the first two being much more likely.

    But, determining which with any degree of certainty, I think is going to require an in hand examination of the coin because we can't tell for sure what we're looking at based on the pics. For example, are the curved lines incuse like what might be created by a piece of wire strikethrough ? Or is the metal below the curved lines incuse or raised ? It could be incuse, like the strikethrough physics-fan3.14 posted. But it could also be raised like a wire strikethrough would cause. And if it is raised, is it the same height as the rest of the numerals, or is a bit lower ? I don't think we can tell any of that, for certain, based on the pics. But in hand, we could.
     
  15. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Holding a 5X up to the screen may be helpful.
     
  16. scguy

    scguy Active Member

    Rick has spoken, damage to the date
     
  17. Steven Shaw

    Steven Shaw Well-Known Member

    Did you buy this coin with the speculation that it wasn't PMD? If so, I hope the price was for one with PMD.
     
  18. scguy

    scguy Active Member

    Yes, but I can return it so it’s not a big deal
     
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