Hi my Friend on CoinTalk! It's been a while since I've posted anything. It's been crazy this past few years. Well, I'm back! Hey, need a little help on this 1853 No Arrow Quarter. Just found it this morning in a old tin that I've had sitting around for several months. Step Father passed away a while back and he was a collector. Anywho, I won't bore you with the details. The coin weights 6.09 grams, book says 6.74 grams, the coin measures 24.40 millimeters, book says 24.30 millimeters. Questions I'm ok with the diameter, but, what do you guys think about weight? Is the weight in tolerance with such a worn coin? Is there any reason to believe it's a fake? Here's a couple pics. Just for fun, what do you think it would grade? Thanks again for any comments/help
The surfaces imply movement of a fair amount of metal. If I follow my instincts, I'd guess the arrows and rays would have brought the coin back into tolerance on the weight.
Very desirable coin. Looks real to me, here is a graded pcgs one for reference. https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1853-25c-no-arrows/5421 It’s less than a gram underweight, about .6 so I think that is authentic because of wear.
I can see that. There are little scratch marks on the left of the 3. Probably would be easier to tell in person than from a picture.
Now ya got me thinkin the same thing.......here's a close up of date. Looks like possible strike thru or maybe lamination? Still think the 3 looks legit (or not)
I believe your coin is a counterfeit. It does not show the re-punching of the 5 that is part of every genuine 1853 No Arrows and which shows on even well-worn coins. Also, the marks at the 3 do not appear to be the same as the overdate re-punching on genuine coins. It looks more like someone modified an 8 to make it look like a 3 and clumsily at that. Also, a genuine 1853 No Arrows has a specified weight of 6.88 grams but all later quarters have a specified weight of 6.22 grams. It is much more likely that your coin started out at 6.22 grams and lost weight due to circulation and metal removal at the 8/3 down to 6.09 grams (a loss of 2.1%) than to have gone from 6.88 grams down to 6.09 grams ( a loss of 11.5%). In Jason Poe's excellent book The Art and Science of Grading Coins (highly recommended) on pages 132-134, he describes his own "weight loss due to wear" experiment and also quotes a 1902 Mint Director study. Both of those efforts led to a 4-5% loss of weight from uncirculated condition to well-worn condition. I think you would agree that your coin at 2.1% is much closer to that than 11.5%. The coin doesn't show signs of metal removal from removal of the arrows on the obverse nor the rays on the reverse. Along with the weight loss percentages mentioned above, the 1858 coin resumed the characteristics of the Variety 1 quarter but with the weight reduction of variety two. This means that an 1858 quarter is the same with regard to its diameter specification as the 1853 No Arrows but because the 1858 is lighter, the 1858 is thinner. You might check the thickness at the rim against some Variety 1 quarters-I can't find that specification right now. My references state the most common gauge for the Philadelphia mint used for all quarters from 1838 to 1860 was 113 reeds. If your coin is a modified 1858 it would show the same 113 reeds as a genuine 1853 No Arrows. But if your coin's reed count is different than 113, it would be another indication that your coin is counterfeit. All in all, I think it is far more likely that your coin is a counterfeit than not. I would grade your quarter around F-12. Greysheet lists that at $2200 so if genuine this is quite a valuable coin. Probably worth it to have a TPG take a look. My genuine wish for you is that it's genuine but I think the preponderance of evidence points otherwise.
Thanks for the close up. IMHO, it looks like it was originally a 1858 and not an 1853 because someone scratched part of the number off. If someone wanted to buy a coin like this, I don't believe they would like the scratches right there.
Awesome info Publius2. I'm a little bummed, but it is what it is That's why I posted, to experts like you, to get a honest eval. I send a lot of Morgans and Peace$'s (VAM's) to ICG. I think I'll throw this in with the next batch of coins and risk $12 to be sure. Thanks again!
I assume you mean genuine altered coin and not "counterfeit." Do you believe it is a complete fabrication?
I said that I thought it was most likely an altered 1858 which if true would make it a "genuine" altered coin. But I said quite clearly that I do not believe the coin is what it purports to be, an 1853 No Arrows quarter.
