1838 Poland 20 Zloty gold coin - helping a friend identify mint variety

Hi all,

I'm working through limited resources and a friend of the family to help identify the following coin.

It's an 1838 20 Zloty gold coin from Poland / Russia (3 rubles)

There is no mint mark on this one. The others I've seen have a stamping in what I believe are Russian characters not available on an English keyboard (I know there are maps but I'm out of my realm neither speak nor write in Russian).

Here is a link to one for sale with the mint marking shown (3 characters below date)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RUSSIA-POLA...6-593pieces-/221849950886?hash=item33a7499aa6

The coins I have found are stamped something similar to CNH across the bottom of the obverse (reverse? I don't even know which way is up on these!).

Was there more than one mint for these? Could this be an error? It is the correct weight and size, we have verified.

Any ideas or direction would be helpful. I haven't had my hands and eyes on this yet, but we are very sure it's AU and possibly may go uncirculated. I'm interested in opinions, thoughts and where we might turn next?

Thanks everyone!

 

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These were minted by СПБ Mint (SPB - Saint Petersburg, Russia) during 1834 to 1841. Each year also got coins from MW - Warsaw Mint, Poland. Their price is noticeably higher. Your 1838 MW is marked "R" in Konros catalog, which means the coins is a rarity. The only way to find out the value is to find completed auctions in similar grade. I`d say the coin is rather valuable, but you`ll need to find the right buyer. IMHO this coin belongs in a slab, IF real.

The photos are not even close to be informative. I think you`ve been enough time on CT to know what kind of photos to upload.

From what I see, the year and mint mark do not look right AT ALL.

 

Only 66 pieces of this date/MM were made. Yours is a copy - thin and somewhat crude lettering and incorrect details such as the birds having closed beaks instead of wide open. Also the rims look wrong and there is no period after the gold standard. Might still be solid gold though.

 

Thank you Taxidermist. I'm interested in why you say they don't look right. To me the date looks very comparable in font, script and minting. The part that concerns me is the font type in the writing - particularly ZLOTYCH. It could be that the coin I've got for comparison is worn and the gold has been flattened a bit, or it could be a reproduction. If it's a rarity, there's obviously a high chance of it.

When I look at a comparable PCGS sample - I see the font being just a bit flatter and wider than what I am showing in my pictures.

Mind you, I'm trying to help someone else that has no trust of anyone - let alone TPG's (who ironically I'd trust first).

I am trying to figure out if it's authentic and worth the cost of sending in, or if we're just dealing with a fake/replica. I won't get to see the coin in person until mid-Oct, so I have some time for homework.

 

If you're paying $7,000 for a coin, then it's definitely worth getting sent in.

 

It was my assumption from the start that it was not real, but I had to at least perform due diligence. It was "too good to be true" and I knew that when I saw the mintage for the variety.

Now the tough part is getting the owner to admit it's a fake and encouraging them to melt it down - or at least stamp "copy" on it. He just doesn't want to let go of the fact that he thought he had an expensive coin.

For the record, I found one listed as AU Details on HA that sold for $28k.

Now to start work on the 1711 Ducat which since from the same source - is probably also going to turn out the same way.

Thanks to everyone for helping me with my sanity check.

 

I share everyone's opinion here. This is an excessive rare coin and unless this comes from a known collection, it is very unlikely that such coin appear out of nowhere.

The reason why you don't see the mint mark spb is because this was struck in Poland. This is why you see the letter MW on the reverse.

What bothered me the most is the letter 'R'. (The flipped over r). It just has the strange swiggy line which I have never seen anywhere else. Numismat has mentioned it - it might be struck in real gold.

Personally if you struggle to reason with the owner, I guess while we do our best to eliminate the easy counterfeits, ultimately we are not the experts. If he can't trust TPG with their vast resources and knowledge, nothing can help him.

 

I know nothing about this coin. However, two things would bother me, if I was interested in this coin:
1) Being sold from Spain.
2) Not in a NGC/PCGS slab with the number showing for reference.

As far as doing more research in the cyrillic alphabet, you can download that alphabet easily to your computer (esp. if you own an apple computer), and then play around on your English-only keyboard in Word until you start making the right cyrillic letters to put together the titles seen on this coin. I do this often with other alphabets when I search for world coins: I also use a pencil to write the letters that each keystroke makes right on my keys so I remember which ones to use. Don't forget the "shift" button: That also makes different characters in other alphabets, too. Cut and paste the cyrillic titles from your word document into the google search box (or the numismatic search engine, http://acsearch.info) hit search, and start clicking on links; or better yet, do an image search to find your coin. I'm sure that you would be able to find plenty of Russian/Polish numismatic sites that feature this coin.