1799 Large Cents

Yes. I do hope he doesn't mind since I haven't asked him if he cared if it was public.

 

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dont worry about it. he told me when he got a 1799 for someone when i was asking him about some 1807 on friday. i just didnt know it was you who recieved the coin. i wish him and me were a bit closer to eachother then i would probably have him do some trading for me.

 

Now that I'm looking there, the stem on the subject is long and does not seem to match the Reverse C of 1799 which has a short stem and fat berry.

But I'm also drawn to the spacing of CA verses the right ribbon which doesn't seem to match any of them. A almost touching C and distant from ribbon. This along with what appears to be a long fraction bar which is further left (covering about half the 1) than the other long fraction bars leaves me with questions. I wish I was identifying THIS coin when it was a VF20. It would probably answer lots of questions.





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A collector can't go wrong in dealing with 900fine.

 

He does not need to be close to you. Rick is a very good person to work with. He has sold quiet a few of my coins for me. I am happy with what he has done for me.

 

Very true, gotten two coins from him & have been very satisfied. He's also been very helpful with some attribute questions ive had.

 

I agree the reverse does seem to resemble B as far as the ed spacing in United

 

There seems to be something which doesn't match and things which do match each of the reverses. The trick is to figure out what is due to post mint damage or corrosion vs what is from the die. The one thing I'm never satisfied with is identification based on the opposite side identification. I want to identify each side independently. Condor pointed out the top right berry as definitively ruling out the NC-6, though the fraction bar and ED look right. The upper right berry looks like the Reverse A of 1800, but the spacing seems wrong. The Reverse C doesn't look right at the upper right berry or the fraction bar and none seem to have the close CA distant from the right ribbon.

Unfortunately, the coin is just beyond the point where a closer look helps.

Now about Rick and his wife, I found each of them delightful and I'm well pleased with his efforts on my behalf. I am fortunate to live near his hometown so they could drop by on their way to Silsbee's coin show.

 

Marshall, Congrats on the NEWP. The 1799 is a large cent that every early copper collector covets, and you've found quite a pleasing example, IMO. Thanks for sharing & again, congrats!.....Mike

 

Well, I found a match in much better shape in the Heritage Archives called S-189 Die State V. It is either confirmation of the S-189 or a second example of mine.

S-189 Reverse DS V

Note the crumbling of the dentils on both sides above the first A of AMERICA. There is also a die chip immediately left of the fraction bar which explains why my coin appears to have a long fraction bar. This also shows a long stem on the top right berry like mine, but different from the other S-189s I've seen. This better coin may show the markers of previous die states to nail it down as the Reverse C, but I'm not yet familiar with them. (but I intend to be.)

I also find it interesting that the break from the leaf to the rim between F and A which they call a planchet lamination also appears to show on my coin when a planchet lamination should be unique to each planchet.

The spacing at ED and CA also look like matches.



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The crumbling rim surrounding the first A of America confirms the S-189 Die and the crumbling on the right indicates Die State V which also should show an obverse crack from the top of the drapery to the rim and the chip between E of One and T of CENT should be bold. The last two are weak on my coin, but the die chip left of the fraction bar begins appearing in the latter stages of Die State IV.

Thanks for listening to my rambling.

 

It's too bad the berries on the left side of the wreath are so far gone. The very long nearly vertical stem on the berry left of the C in CENT is rather distinctive. There is only one reverse in the 1798's with type 2 hair that has a similar berry, and on it the berry is well above the level of the C. We can ignore all the earlier dates because they have type 1 hair.

On thing that makes me feel good about this coin is the highest wave of hair is to the right of center of the R above it. There are only about eleven varieties in the whole draped bust series where that is true. Six in 1798, three in 1799, and one in 1800. The others can be ignored because they aren't from the same hubbed reverse die. So we can check for the possibility of an altered date.

The six 1798's are S180, 181, 182, 183, 186, and 187. 187 can be eliminated because the top left berry droops down heavily. 182 and 183 can be eliminated because the last A almost touches the ribbon and they have a heavy die cut from the ribbon to the center of the A. 180 almost always has a heavy rim break over T3 and no stem to the berry below M. Scratch 180. 181 has a strong die crack on the obverse from 9:00 to the curl below the ribbons. That just leaves 186 as a possibility. That could be a problem because its reverse was also used in 1799 on S-188.

So we have eliminated all the possible 1798's except S-186. We will come back to it in a minute.

The three in 1799 are NC-1, 188, and 189. NC-1 and S-188 both have the 9's widely spaced, the subject coin does not. So that eliminates NC-1 and S-188. While 188 was being struck the reverse die cracks heavily in an arc from below the fraction to the right through the E in AMERICA to the rim. Then it was used for the 1798 S-186 so the 186 always shows this heavy crack. No crack on the subject coin so that eliminates 186 as well.

We are down to two varieties left S-189 and 1800 S-198.

On 1800 S-198, LIBERTY is down close to the hair. That is not the case with the subject coin. By process of elimination we come down to 1799 S-189

 

ANd what if it is the obverse of 189 and reverse of 198? I think that is what marshall may be getting at.

I am also impressed with what you all go thru to attribute the coins. I only looked at the 189 and 198 and went with the obverse matching up. I think the process you all go thru makes for good reading.

 

The remote possibility of finding a mule or new die is always at the front of my mind. In this case, we came to the same conclusion by slightly different methods, but the information is still invaluable. Having researched the minutia of the differences in the varieties pretty much authenticates the 1799 from alteration of dates. The only other possibility becomes a worn electrotype of an S-189. Electrotypes were fairly common by the early part of the 20th century and are mentioned repeatedly in Penny Whimsy.

The provenance gives me some security until I learn how to spot an electrotype which has been worn. I seriously doubt this, but I like to cover all the bases.

ps If anybody has a rarity rating for S-189 Die State V I'd love to know what it is.

 

The typical electrotype is a pair of copper shells built up by plating which are then filled with another metal with a low melting point, usually lead. Most electrotypes are significantly overweight. They are also usually made from higher quality coins. If an electrotype is worn significantly after it is made it tends to wear through the copper very quickly and lets the inside metal show through.

Then you have a new NC. As for telling the reverse of 189 and 198 apart look at the berries right of the T in CENT. On 189 they have definite stems while on 198 they are pretty much stemless.

 

Not any more.

 

WTG, Mark! Any chance of better images?
Lance.

 

Better no - different yes. I went with a darker image than Marshall. The bottom picture shows the darker color better. I took a quick shot of it in the album. My photographing skills are no where near as good as your skills.

 

I'm so glad it has found a home with a copper lover and not just an investor.

Congratulations Mark!

 

Boy, I'm jealous, Mark. I'm beginning to think there's a permanent hole in my set. But I'm glad this one went to a good home!
Lance.