1795 Draped Bust Dollar (real or fake)

Those two "heavy contact marks" are what concerns me as well but I'm not sure they are contact marks. There are also other marks on the reverse just above 9 o'clock (almost an "X") that show up on both (replica and my coin) but similar marks are on the coin with the two spikes but more closer to 9 o'clock.

Other than having the coin graded the only thing that will convince me my coin is real is to find a "real one" with the "heavy marks" identical to mine, especially the heavy mark on the shoulder since that mark is also on a 1796 replica I found on Ebay as are several other marks but that could be due to duplicating the replicas from one coin and it happened to be the "sister" to my 1795 DBD.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: I have found one real coin (graded) that had a shoulder mark like mine but it wasn't as long. I'm wondering if it might have gotten worse over time, as such is usually the case with wear on dies?

 

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Marks on a die should show as raised areas, not incuse areas, Toad. Furthermore, if you find one with similar incuse marks, it is a sign of a counterfeit, not a real coin -- as Conder pointed out.

Paging Mr. Feld. Mark Feld, would you please report to this thread.....

 

p.s. here's another example of a Bolender 14:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=428&Lot_No=2221

 

I'll go find the coin with the recessed shoulder mark and post the link so you can see it does exist. I know it's usually the other way around and that is why I looked for that specific mark earlier, prior to making this post and I would have to click through all the google links to find it again but since that mark goes against mint theology, I'll take the time to find that coin again.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

 

Perhaps I'm biased, knowing the odds of a great deal on the purchase of an uncertified coin of that type are dwarfed by the odds of a terrible deal. But my eyes and gut tell me the coin is a counterfeit. For every "find of a lifetime" that pans out, there are probably hundreds or even thousands of costly disappointments. Many buyers think they can beat the overwhelming odds against them, but the reality is that hardly any of them do.

 

I agree but I can still have hope!

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

 

Thanks Mark.

 

There you go, lol I fixed it. DBD gotta remember DBD. I said I didn't know much about them. You're welcome though and I'm happy I was able to help a little.. John.

 

I feel strongly that this coin is counterfeit. An excellent counterfeit though. I recently had the opportunity to examine some counterfeit bust dollars, and yours appears to have come from the same origin IMO. I even posted a thread about them, however did not include pictures.

 

I'm worried it's a fake too and it is a really good fake, even better than my 1893-S Morgan, but I don't want to waste my money having it graded a fake. :mouth: I didn't pay enough to get hurt and I can mount it somehow and not tell anyone the truth. It'll be our little secret.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

 

The two depressions in the neck and the depressed mark in the drapery above the 1 in the date both are identical to the replica coin on ebay. So, I would say it is definitely fake.

As for the cleaning, many counterfeit and altered coins are intentenionally cleaned and/or damaged to conceal the fact that they are fake/altered.

 

Hey Toad. Good luck when determining authenticity on this one. I am in a similar boat right now as I purchased a $3 Indian Princess coin that lends some strong signs towards being counterfit. I haven't confirmed this, but I have been suspicious since I have received the coin.

Did you buy the coin thinking it might be?

 

A thread which may be of interest...note the coin in question....

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=647774

...and the slab it is in....Mike

 

That is scary! I didn't realize they were doing that yet, although I suspected it was coming.

There's something interesting about it, as it pertains to my coin. The fake slabbed coin doesn't have the "problems" my coin has which could only mean there is more than one counterfeiter but at least it didn't "kill" my coin. It could also mean that some of the referenced coins, posted earlier, could be slabbed fakes and the one coin I saw with the shoulder impression, that I haven't found again (still looking), could also be a slabbed fake.

It's gotten to the point where we almost have to buy the serious coins directly from a grading service and that isn't good!

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

 

Here's one to check out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1795-DRAPED-BUST-SILVER-DOLLAR-PCGS-XF45_W0QQitemZ120237920885QQihZ002QQcategoryZ11976QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Note where the item is currently located and feel free to harrass the seller and report the coin.

Ribbit,
Toad :smile

Ps: I just notified PCGS of the auction so maybe they will try and locate the counterfeiters? They can possibly get the Secret Service involved, since it's their job to go after monetary counterfeiters.

Ribbit - Ribbit - Ribbit

 

Note the reeded edge on this 1795 Flowing Hair Bust Dollar:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1795-BUST-SILVE...goryZ525QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's obvious he knows its a fake and just trying to unload it for whatever he can get for it.

Ribbit,
Toad

 

I messaged him, asked for pictures, and got a reply. Here is the reply:

Dear Ribbit Toad,

This is the better picture of this coin. Please confirm if you like it. Would you please tell me the highest price you would offer. If I feel that the price we would discuss well, I will immediately end it's auction on eBay and then sell the coin to you. Waiting for your reply! Thank you!

He tried to sell me the coin and bypass Ebay. Rut-roh!

Here are the pictures of this fake PCGS graded DBD (note the shoulder mark & star spurs):

 

Danger, Will Robinson! Danger!!

 

It is hard to see in the pictures, but that is also a B-14 dollar with the same defects yours, and the piece marked replica has.

 

That's what I said. :goof:

Ribbit,
Toad :smile