I posted about my coin on coincommunity, but the world coins forum appears to have lower activity recently. This is my 1787 Mexico 8 Reales that has some quirks I'd like to point out. First is the obvious surface texture, this coin has environmental damage. Second is that I can't find the second overlap on the edge milling, which it should have. The first overlap is present in edge photo 2, but I cannot see where it's supposed to be in edge photo 4 (180 degrees). Third is more of an observation, but I tried a ping test on it and it sounds completely different than my genuine Charles III 8 Reales, there is no resonance to it whatsoever. Lastly, this coin is a little underweight clocking in at 26.57 grams, this could possibly be due to the environmental damage. I'm at a bit of an impasse as the quality of the strike and edge milling looks consistent with the quality of Mexico City mint, but the other details are making me second guess. I don't see ridiculous wobble in the edge milling like I see on contemporary counterfeits, or "boxy" circles in the edge milling. I've been told every genuine 8 Reales will have two overlaps 180 degrees from each other and will terminate similarly.
I am not an expert on these coins, but I know they are very often counterfeited. The overlap issue gives me pause. The other discrepancies you note make me very suspicious of this coin. Others with better knowledge than me will hopefully weigh in.
Nor am I an expert, I do my best due diligence and read up on what to look out for with these coins. I have purchased a contemporary counterfeit 8 Real before and numerous numismatic forgeries in the past. What's interesting about this one is that it's much better quality (if fake) compared to others I've seen in the past. I'm curious if this is a contemporary counterfeit or numismatic forgery. For example, the coin is still convex on the portrait side, which means it stills spins on the portrait side down. I believe this made it easier to stack the coins in the past. Thank you for your input.
I think the coin is genuine, but with some corrosion, resulting in some weight loss. The denticles are clear, the portrait, shield style and lettering are consistent with 8 reales of this period.
I was leaning towards thinking genuine, but with odd quirks. The quality of the strike and high relief of the portrait and serifs seems absolutely correct for Mexico City. The edge milling is the most intact in my collection thus far, minus the obscured second overlap. In the area where the second overlap should be, I can see some smudging on the edge where the two patterns would have terminated (can be observed in edge photo 4). As for the weight, as a rule of thumb I generally avoid anything under 26.5 grams. I have seen some genuine 8 Reales sell on Sedwick auctions that still had lots of detail and weighed 26.5-26.3 grams as a result of surface corrosion. So the weight didn't actually scare me too much. Lastly, with regards to the ping test, I don't put much trust in this method of testing because the same coins can sound different. This coin in particular still makes a high pitched sound, but it just doesn't resonate at all. I've read various threads about how surface corrosion can cause changes in the metal composition, especially observed with shipwreck coins that read as 99% silver on the surface. So it could be possible there was an alteration to the coin that is causing the odd ping.
I used to be an Authenticator for U.S. coins, so pardon me if this is a stupid question, but can't the ends of the two edge devices just by luck happen to overlap perfectly every one in a, I dunno, 10,000 coins? 100,000 coins?
I honestly have the same question, that was the main driving force for me to seek out experts that may have seen something similar before. All of my other Charles III 8 Reales have double overlaps that terminate with the same shape (circle and circle, or rectangle and rectangle). Often, it can be hard to make out the overlaps due to wear over the centuries. As I said initially, I posted to coincommunity forum where individuals like swamperbob and colonialjohn peruse because I would actually consider them experts on Spanish 8 Reales. They have actual books they've published on the topic as far as I know and have helped me in the past. As of late, I believe they've been inactive on the forum for a while, and I don't like bothering people when they're busy. So no, I don't consider your question stupid at all. Edit: I actually checked coincommunity and swamperbob made a post literally an hour ago, so he's actually back now as far as I know.
Goggle your coin or text it on your web page, that is how I got information on my '73 8 Reales. Good luck and welcome to CT
I'm interested in what swamperbob has to say. I always enjoy his posts. Would you provide a link? Thanks
Apologies, I meant he responded on somebody else's post, but not mine. However, colonialjohn (John Lorenzo) commented just recently on my post and believes this to be a modern forgery =(. Here is the coincommunity link to my post: https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=420969 Here is swamperbob discussing some interesting details: https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=418639
There are definitive observable or measurable details that we can use to positively spot a forgery. Other issues can establish that a coin just can't be authenticated (extensive environmental damage or deliberate defacement, for example). The best we can do to authenticate a coin is to determine that it does not have any anomalous or suspicious details. Your coin does not show evidence that it was edged with a parallel edging and upsetting mill (as all genuine Spanish colonial coins were). That is an observable detail that we can use to question the authenticity of your coin but due to the good quality of the edge details we should call this coin a forgery. Your edge photos are quite excellent by the way. In addition to the missing overlap, there is an anomalous wobble in the section shown by the third edge photo. Many circles have varying thicknesses and the rectangles have varying widths. And for the record, forgeries were made using parallel edging mills so that is not a definitive detail of an authentic issue, just one of many details that need to be checked. On the other hand, very few dealers would reject this coin as inauthentic because they have been buying and selling coins with just these types of anomalous details for their entire careers. Bob Gurney (swamperbob) has made a career of studying how these coins were originally produced and how forgeries were made and applied the necessary rigor to his observations and measurements to provide the rest of us the guidelines that we can use to try to authenticate these for ourselves. Buy his book and read his posts at CCF. Many collectors (and dealers) that choose to believe that coins like these, with correct obverse and reverse details and weight, must be authentic just don't understand the strong financial incentive that was created for producing accurate forgeries (with very close or equal silver content) for trade with China in the 1800's and early 1900's.
Thanks for you input jgenn, swamperbob and colonialjohn have helped me so much with learning about these coins (you as well). I actually just sent this back to the original owner for a refund due to it not being as described, and boy o' boy did they throw a FIT. I laid out why I think it to be a forgery and why I was returning it (I'm trying to get a year set of genuine coins) and was essentially called a fool right off the bat. Then they shared their opinion on how John Lorenzo should quit coin collecting altogether, calling him a fool as well (this one upset me). These dealers always mention how many years they have in the hobby, like it makes you impervious to accidentally buying/selling forgeries. They said they will block me after coin is received, which I hope they follow through with, after the unprofessionalism and disrespect shown I never wish to do business with this individual again. All that over a difference of opinion, and to think they have an over 24k feedback eBay page and physical store, I pray this person doesn't treat all their customers as I have. Enough with the rant though, I have another 8 Reales I'm going to post about because it's slightly smaller in diameter and has an interesting detail I had a question about if anyone is interested =).
