1776 FM Mexico 8 Reales - Authentic?

From what I can tell, mine matches authentic 8 Reales coins for the series. However, I came across a fake 1776 "FF" 8 Reales coin on the 'net that looked similar. So, now I'm starting to question it. My example is obviously an FM mint one so it's not the same. It's also cleaned with hairlines and if authentic, it'll probably come back as XF Details. And, the edge shows the right pattern.

What are you thoughts? Thanks in advance!

 

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Cast fake scrubed to cover

 

Not my area, but I felt the appearance seemed grainy and pitted. The mark of a cast reproduction/ fake.

 

Interesting input... I just noticed this on the edge, too - the square and circle pattern's top and bottom halves are shifted. That's not possible on the original, right? It's as if they were cast from top and bottom molds that shifted. Yet, the other squares and circles haven't shifted at all, so that's odd and contradicts a shifted mold. I'm not sure what to make of it.

 

Even a cheap digital scale could weigh it accurately enough to confirm a fake in many cases. BTW FM here are the assayers’ initials; the mint is Mo, Mexico City.

 

Yes, Mexico City is the Mint. This is my third 8 Reales from 1776

Mine weighs 26.52 grams. Krause says it should weigh 27.0674 grams, so it's about 2% off. Given the wear, that may be within tolerance. If this one's cast from say, "cull" shipwreck Spanish silver coins, then it would weigh the same or very similar to it.

That said, does anyone know for sure if this is a fake? I'd hate to submit it to NGC only to find out that it won't grade because it's counterfeit.

 

That "shifting" on the edge is an overlap. A genuine coin will have a second such overlap directly opposite (180 degrees) to the one shown.
Appearance wise it looks like it may be a sea salvage coin that was heavily cleaned. Sea salvaged coins sometimes have issues that look similar to signs of casting. Not proclaiming your coin to be genuine or fake, just some food for thought.

 

The seller I bought this from sells only shipwreck coins, from El Cazador and Atocha, so maybe it is a shipwreck salvage coin.

Here's the exact opposite side of the previous edge shown - I think that's an overlap:

 

Send it in you will find out for sure!

 

I have had a number of these coins in my collection. That weight is about what you can expect from a circulated coin in that condition. The wear appears even, (partial PLVS VLTRA) though I suspect that at one point it was aggressively cleaned. I would have bought it at a show and paid about $40-50 for it and been content to add it to my collection. A collector has to aware that often the costs of having a coin certified outweigh the worth of the coin and accept that in a large of collection of ancient, medieval and early modern coinage, some of them are bound to be spurious and leave it at that.

 

I think so far that I will, but it's the only World coin that I have right now for submission. Too bad I can't put it on the same form as the US one.

Currently I have 3 World and 2 US submissions pending at NGC, so maybe I should've waited a bit longer to include this one.

It looks like I overpaid by a large margin LOL.

 

Looks like a genuine coin that has been scrubbed.

That's just from looking at the pictures. Darn hard to tell from that minimum amount of info.

 

I would have paid more if I already did not have several of these coins in my collection. I don't know from circulation numbers but the date of 1776 does give it a bit of cachet in that these coins were the dollars in circulation at the time of the American Revolution. Maybe it was minted on July the fourth, 1776.. Also I tend to buy from shows where buying costs are less and one gets to know other dealers and collectors and can get good buys. Unless I know the person selling on line, I like to first handle my coins before I buy them. look up and try to find coin shows in your area. They are fun, you will see many interesting coins and strike
up interesting conversations with the folks there.

 

The seller purchased the 8 Reales from a dealer in Spain. I don't have a reason to doubt his claim, as the rest of the coins he has appear to be either graded authentic or shipwreck coins with a nice presentation box.

Yeah, I'll be at CSNS this April in IL. Maybe I'll be able to buy and even sell/trade there, too. I hope that it'll be cheaper relative to eBay.

 

OK, this came back from NGC as "ALTERED SURFACE" and NOT ENCAPSULATED. I don't understand why it wasn't encapsulated. It's not that they don't think that it's authentic, right? Otherwise, it would have said so on the invoice and on the body bag label. My understanding is that coins with altered surfaces are "simply" given a Details grade.

I did call NGC and they said that they can't even confirm its authenticity. My thinking is that there's some sort of compound residue on the coin and that may alter the coin inside of the slab, so it didn't get slabbed. But, the rep told me that there's no specific info as to what altered surface means, besides the broad possible reasons as to why (for instance, fake cameo, putty, etc.).

Based on the pics, I don't see any sort of major surface alteration. Instead, I see harsh cleaning and severe surface hairlines (but that's not the diagnosis it received). So, maybe the black marks are putty residue or something?

 

It's possible they were not confident in authenticity, so they just went with the obvious

 

Can you determine the specific gravity?

 

Can you determine the specific gravity?

 

It weighs 26.51 grams, has a diameter of 38.5mm, and a thickness of 2mm.

If I'm not mistaken, I calculate the specific gravity to be 11.386.

 

Yes, I calculate the same so something's off. 90% silver/10% copper is 10.31

If the average thickness were actually 2.2mm then the specific gravity would be close to correct.

Even so a correct specific gravity is not proof of authenticity.