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1733 2Pence Rosa Amer - is it counterfeit?
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<p>[QUOTE="bernard55, post: 8060761, member: 114733"]I acquired this coin recently and I am attempting to determine if it's counterfeit and if it is where did it emanate from...</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1733-2pence-rosa-amer-pattern-bn/143" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1733-2pence-rosa-amer-pattern-bn/143" rel="nofollow">Here </a>is the reference which was made out of Bath Metal (an alloy consisting of 4.5 ounces of zinc per 1 pound of copper)</p><p><br /></p><p>The coin I'm in possession of weighs 14.8g -> however, I can't find a reference to the original coin's weight.</p><p><br /></p><p>Please let me know your advice on how to do further research. </p><p><br /></p><p>Here is what I've looked at so far:</p><p><br /></p><p>I did see <a href="https://www.ebay.com/itm/284100596483" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://www.ebay.com/itm/284100596483" rel="nofollow">this listing</a> on ebay and it referenced 'electrotype' (Electrotyping is a chemical method for forming metal parts that exactly reproduce a model. The method was invented by Moritz von Jacobi in Russia in 1838)</p><p><br /></p><p>There are also references to fake Rosa Americana coins <a href="https://coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins.pl?coin=13145" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins.pl?coin=13145" rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109" rel="nofollow">here</a> (but they primarily refer to the 1722 - 1724 variety). There is also a reference <a href="http://numismatics.org/collection/2010.11.6" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/collection/2010.11.6" rel="nofollow">here </a>that states "Rosa Americana Twopence made for sale as replica by respected Hartford CT numismatist Alfred S. Robinson. 45 struck in brass using new head wholly unlike original." (but this head seems to be the same as the PCGS pix)--<a href="https://coinscatalog.net/usa/coin-2-pence-km-16-rosa-americana" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://coinscatalog.net/usa/coin-2-pence-km-16-rosa-americana" rel="nofollow">this</a> may be that coin but i'm not positive... <a href="http://numismatics.org/collection/1989.99.43" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/collection/1989.99.43" rel="nofollow">This </a>reference however refers to 'electrotype'. (but weight is off significantly). Numismatics.org has <a href="http://numismatics.org/search/results?q=department_facet%3A%22United%20States%22%20AND%20year_num%3A%221733%22" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/search/results?q=department_facet%3A%22United%20States%22%20AND%20year_num%3A%221733%22" rel="nofollow">13 copies</a> of the 1733 listed but i don't see a reference to the original.</p><p><br /></p><p>and nothing about the 1733 proof is listed <a href="http://numismatics.org/wikiuploads/CNL/Hibernia.pdf" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="http://numismatics.org/wikiuploads/CNL/Hibernia.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p><p><br /></p><p>Not sure what to make of <a href="https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109" target="_blank" class="externalLink ProxyLink" data-proxy-href="https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109" rel="nofollow">this reference</a> on page 111 (<font size="4"><b>The American Numismatic Manual </b></font><font size="3"><b>Dickeson, Montroville Wilson (1860)</b></font>) I did see this: "but the penny piece of 1733, which we have described, is a rare specimen of that coin issued in the reign of George II. Of this penny, we have never learned of the existence of but four specimens, which were, until lately, in the cabinets of England. For a fac-simile of it we are indebted to Snelling and Ruding, who derived it from the cabinet of Thomas Hollis, Esq., whose collection was sold at auction in London, on May 18th, 1817, when this piece brought the sum of £6, 6s.; another specimen in the collection of Marmaduke Trattle, Esq., commanded the sum of £3, Is., in 1882; the third is in the celebrated collection of the British Museum, and the fourth was purchased in England for the sum of £ 7, or thirty-five dollars, for Charles J. Bushnell, Esq., of New York city, unfortunately placed on board of the steamer Arctic, to be transmitted to him, on her last and fatal voyage, and its pigmy proportions are now added to the vast accumulations that lie imbedded in the sands of the Atlantic ocean."</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1397079[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397080[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397081[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397082[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397083[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Comparison:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]1397095[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="bernard55, post: 8060761, member: 114733"]I acquired this coin recently and I am attempting to determine if it's counterfeit and if it is where did it emanate from... [URL='https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1733-2pence-rosa-amer-pattern-bn/143']Here [/URL]is the reference which was made out of Bath Metal (an alloy consisting of 4.5 ounces of zinc per 1 pound of copper) The coin I'm in possession of weighs 14.8g -> however, I can't find a reference to the original coin's weight. Please let me know your advice on how to do further research. Here is what I've looked at so far: I did see [URL='https://www.ebay.com/itm/284100596483']this listing[/URL] on ebay and it referenced 'electrotype' (Electrotyping is a chemical method for forming metal parts that exactly reproduce a model. The method was invented by Moritz von Jacobi in Russia in 1838) There are also references to fake Rosa Americana coins [URL='https://coinquest.com/cgi-bin/cq/coins.pl?coin=13145']here[/URL] and [URL='https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109']here[/URL] (but they primarily refer to the 1722 - 1724 variety). There is also a reference [URL='http://numismatics.org/collection/2010.11.6']here [/URL]that states "Rosa Americana Twopence made for sale as replica by respected Hartford CT numismatist Alfred S. Robinson. 45 struck in brass using new head wholly unlike original." (but this head seems to be the same as the PCGS pix)--[URL='https://coinscatalog.net/usa/coin-2-pence-km-16-rosa-americana']this[/URL] may be that coin but i'm not positive... [URL='http://numismatics.org/collection/1989.99.43']This [/URL]reference however refers to 'electrotype'. (but weight is off significantly). Numismatics.org has [URL='http://numismatics.org/search/results?q=department_facet%3A%22United%20States%22%20AND%20year_num%3A%221733%22']13 copies[/URL] of the 1733 listed but i don't see a reference to the original. and nothing about the 1733 proof is listed [URL='http://numismatics.org/wikiuploads/CNL/Hibernia.pdf']here[/URL]. Not sure what to make of [URL='https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/book/512402?page=109']this reference[/URL] on page 111 ([SIZE=4][B]The American Numismatic Manual [/B][/SIZE][SIZE=3][B]Dickeson, Montroville Wilson (1860)[/B][/SIZE]) I did see this: "but the penny piece of 1733, which we have described, is a rare specimen of that coin issued in the reign of George II. Of this penny, we have never learned of the existence of but four specimens, which were, until lately, in the cabinets of England. For a fac-simile of it we are indebted to Snelling and Ruding, who derived it from the cabinet of Thomas Hollis, Esq., whose collection was sold at auction in London, on May 18th, 1817, when this piece brought the sum of £6, 6s.; another specimen in the collection of Marmaduke Trattle, Esq., commanded the sum of £3, Is., in 1882; the third is in the celebrated collection of the British Museum, and the fourth was purchased in England for the sum of £ 7, or thirty-five dollars, for Charles J. Bushnell, Esq., of New York city, unfortunately placed on board of the steamer Arctic, to be transmitted to him, on her last and fatal voyage, and its pigmy proportions are now added to the vast accumulations that lie imbedded in the sands of the Atlantic ocean." [ATTACH=full]1397079[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397080[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397081[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397082[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]1397083[/ATTACH] Comparison: [ATTACH=full]1397095[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
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1733 2Pence Rosa Amer - is it counterfeit?
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